Guardian - Golden Eagle Tag found near Grousemoor - who are these idiots ?

[landkeeper]

I notice over here where grouse shooting is almost non existant and certainly not of the driven variety when sea eagles and such turn up dead the normal suspects seem to be listed as upland farming interests
I honestly cant see what keeper is going to shoot any bop risking job house and almost certainly any further chance of employment within the shooting intdustry never mind never getting a fac ever again

 

[mereside]

Why would you go to the bother of wrapping the tag in lead would it just be easier to just smash it, I don’t condone this behaviour but it just seems far fetched to get some lead, you would think if somebody wanted something to go missing it would do and stay that way, why do things always get found, total rubbish to me, regards Wayne

 

[bbrc]

I guess most of us on here are shooters?

Think for a minute on this before we jump to any conclusions.
If you were to walk around your shoot one day and find a dead bird of prey with tracker attached how many of us would not pause and think of the possible consequences before reporting it immediately?
How many of us would not be concerned that it was-
A) Planted as a set up. (Is it an impossibility that a tracked bird that died of natural causes could be found and then subsequently have lead shot inserted into the carcas and left in an appropriate place to further an agenda?)
B) It might have, at sometime, been shot or poisoned elsewhere and died on our shoots and the blame would fall where it was found
C) It had died of natural causes but the likelihood of it being reported as such was unlikely. News stories such as “dead bird of prey found on local shoot!” seem popular at the moment

It could be quite possible that either just the tracker or the bird, dead of natural causes, with tracker still attached was found by someone who didn’t expect a fair hearing from the pressure groups, press or from the authorities and thought that the best resolution was to dispose of the thing in a way to prevent discovery.
Without the carcass of the bird it is not really evidence of anything other than a tracker being disposed in an over elaborate manner

 

[kes]

I guess most of us on here are shooters?

Think for a minute on this before we jump to any conclusions.
If you were to walk around your shoot one day and find a dead bird of prey with tracker attached how many of us would not pause and think of the possible consequences before reporting it immediately?
How many of us would not be concerned that it was-
A) Planted as a set up. (Is it an impossibility that a tracked bird that died of natural causes could be found and then subsequently have lead shot inserted into the carcas and left in an appropriate place to further an agenda?)
B) It might have, at sometime, been shot or poisoned elsewhere and died on our shoots and the blame would fall where it was found
C) It had died of natural causes but the likelihood of it being reported as such was unlikely. News stories such as “dead bird of prey found on local shoot!” seem popular at the moment

It could be quite possible that either just the tracker or the bird, dead of natural causes, with tracker still attached was found by someone who didn’t expect a fair hearing from the pressure groups, press or from the authorities and thought that the best resolution was to dispose of the thing in a way to prevent discovery.
Without the carcass of the bird it is not really evidence of anything other than a tracker being disposed in an over elaborate manner

I think supposition either way is the enemy of the facts - report everything and get independent testing done.

 

[bbrc]

I think supposition either way is the enemy of the facts - report everything and get independent testing done.

How, once reported, can you guarantee that the bird will be made available for independent testing?
What if it is turned over to an anti shooting organisation for testing?
Who would foot the bill for this independent testing?

 

[Mungo]

Oh come on.

The faux outrage on here is pitiful.

We know keepers kill things they shouldn’t. Stop pretending they don’t.

All you’re doing by denying it and allowing/encouraging it to continue is speeding up the day all field sports is legislated out of existence.

It happens. Every one of us on here knows it does. Most of us have seen it or evidence of it. Many of us have done it. Stop acting like a bunch of guilty teens pretending that no, no - no one here smokes weed and HOW DARE YOU SEARCH MY ROOM THAT’S A VIOLATION!

Pathetic. Grow a pair, admit it happens, recognise that it is an existential threat to the sport, confront those doing it and tell then to fu**ing stop before we lose everything.

 

[CarlW]

Oh come on.

The faux outrage on here is pitiful.

We know keepers kill things they shouldn’t. Stop pretending they don’t.

All you’re doing by denying it and allowing/encouraging it to continue is speeding up the day all field sports is legislated out of existence.

It happens. Every one of us on here knows it does. Most of us have seen it or evidence of it. Many of us have done it. Stop acting like a bunch of guilty teens pretending that no, no - no one here smokes weed and HOW DARE YOU SEARCH MY ROOM THAT’S A VIOLATION!

Pathetic. Grow a pair, admit it happens, recognise that it is an existential threat to the sport, confront those doing it and tell then to fu**ing stop before we lose everything.

I agree with you that any keeper who commits a wildlife crime is a disgrace. I think every right-thinking shooter would condemn him. However, we can't drag a man's name through the mud just because a dead raptor happens to be found near his ground. He should enjoy the same presumption that the rest of us do when it comes to the investigation and prosecution of a crime.

 

[Mungo]

I agree with you that any keeper who commits a wildlife crime is a disgrace. I think every right-thinking shooter would condemn him. However, we can't drag a man's name through the mud just because a dead raptor happens to be found near his ground. He should enjoy the same presumption that the rest of us do when it comes to the investigation and prosecution of a crime.

Agreed.

But we should also stop weaselling about looking for any half plausible alternative explanation for things that we deep down know to have been a wildlife crime.

Let’s admit it: somebody killed the eagle. Maybe not the keeper on the nearest estate, but certainly it didn’t die a natural death.

The sooner we stop this pathetic charade the better.

 

[kes]

How, once reported, can you guarantee that the bird will be made available for independent testing?
What if it is turned over to an anti shooting organisation for testing?
Who would foot the bill for this independent testing?

There would have to be agreement from all sides on who would carryout an independent autopsy - not that difficult ?
In my view, since this issue is so critical to the future of shooting maybe BASC/CA could pay for something that would preserve a shooting way of life, offering to would certainly put any opposition on the backfoot as are shooting people when unsubstantiated 'truths' are printed in newspapers e.g.

 

[Roestalker39]

If the shooting industry gives any ground, they will just end up fighting their battle from that weakened position when the goal posts change - sad really.

Thank the lord we’re such dogged fighters and have good orgs to look after us .....

 

[25 Sharps]

The Isle of Wight White-Tailed Eagle introduction is worth a look. It’s a very professional looking project and you can read about the tracking etc.here.

It’s interesting to read that despite the intense surveillance undertaken of just a handful of birds, six in the initial release, that 30% of them simply disappeared - and also refreshing that there wasn’t a knee jerk reaction to apportion blame elsewhere.

Because they don’t live on grouse moors

 

[User00025]

Agreed.

But we should also stop weaselling about looking for any half plausible alternative explanation for things that we deep down know to have been a wildlife crime.

Let’s admit it: somebody killed the eagle. Maybe not the keeper on the nearest estate, but certainly it didn’t die a natural death.

The sooner we stop this pathetic charade the better.

You are making assumptions that the Eagle has been found. If a tag hidden in lead is found in a river why not an Eagle (much bigger). Perhaps they haven't got one in the freezer at present. As you say some are pressured into wildlife crime, but most are too scared. Having had a "Search" once on the pure say so of an anti it is an awful experience to have for your family. When powder jars are emptied on dressing tables looking for substances and drawers of ladies things are rifled through, it isn't nice. I did have the pleasure of grabbing an "Expert witness" who wasn't on the warrant, yet was poking about in the larder and shoving him back in a vehicle roughly telling him what I would do if he got out. I suppose I was lucky there but our local PC saw it and chose to ignore it.
Yes I knew and worked under Keepers who used every method going, but that was in the last century, times have changed dramatically. If you know someone committing any crime and can prove it, report it don't just say "Lets admit it, somebody killed an Eagle" without proof.

 

[VSS]

I would, without hesitation, report anyone I knew who killed a raptor illegally. Our sport doesn't need those people.

However, I'm also well aware how easy it would be, next time a daft sparrowhawk breaks its silly neck by flying into the front of my conservatory, to fire a couple of airgun pellets into its body and then "find" it on a footpath running through the nearest shooting estate.

Now, if you were someone who was on a mission to get shooting sports banned, what would you do with that dead sparrowhawk, or any other dead raptor that you were fortunate enough to come across? There's plenty that die from natural causes or misadventure which are found just by chance. An opportunity for some that's too good to waste, I should think.

 

[Gzl]

Jesus wept! This must be a spoof.

It's not clear what incident you're talking about here, I can find no link to Channel 4 reporting on the incident of the lead-weighted tag.
Leaving that aside, as a very basic lesson in how the legal system works in this country the police do not prosecute. The CPS prosecutes. It's unlikely the Channel 4 report said that, and if they did, it is technically incorrect. Further, the existence of a prosecution cannot be taken as proof that the evidence presented will actually hold up in a court. It also cannot be considered as a factual statement that a crime has been committed or that a person is guilty.

So, in summary, you are at least thrice wrong on this, but I have no doubt you will continue to forge on with this deluded propaganda in defiance of obvious facts.

You rightly explain the the nuances of the legal system, that Unfortunately is where your facts end and pure fantasy begins. Your stance clearly puts you in the “delusional“, as you quoted, camp of the blind Arrogant and ignorant.
Anyone connected even loosely to the shooting fraternity knows that raptor persecution takes place all over the country be it on grouse moors or small keepered shoots, fact. To conclude to either have no knowledge of countryside practices or as you quoted delusional.

 

[VSS]

You rightly explain the the nuances of the legal system, that Unfortunately is where your facts end and pure fantasy begins. Your stance clearly puts you in the “delusional“, as you quoted, camp of the blind Arrogant and ignorant.
Anyone connected even loosely to the shooting fraternity knows that raptor persecution takes place all over the country be it on grouse moors or small keepered shoots, fact. To conclude to either have no knowledge of countryside practices or as you quoted delusional.

Given that you claim to know that raptor persecution takes place on shooting estates, perhaps you'd care to name and shame, publicly, on here? That would be the right thing to do, under the circumstances.
Personally I know of only one instance. I intended to report it, but events overtook me and the keeper concerned was jailed for other, more serious, offences.

 

[User00025]

Given that you claim to know that raptor persecution takes place on shooting estates, perhaps you'd care to name and shame, publicly, on here? That would be the right thing to do, under the circumstances.
Personally I know of only one instance. I intended to report it, but events overtook me and the keeper concerned was jailed for other, more serious, offences.

Are you saying there are more serious offences?

 

[VSS]

Are you saying there are more serious offences?

When the offences resulted in the death of a young lad, rather than a buzzard, I should say so.

 

[User00025]

When the offences resulted in the death of a young lad, rather than a buzzard, I should say so.

Tim I know of the case and a lot worse but just an attempt to lighten up a bit.

 

[Apthorpe]

You rightly explain the the nuances of the legal system, that Unfortunately is where your facts end and pure fantasy begins. Your stance clearly puts you in the “delusional“, as you quoted, camp of the blind Arrogant and ignorant.
Anyone connected even loosely to the shooting fraternity knows that raptor persecution takes place all over the country be it on grouse moors or small keepered shoots, fact. To conclude to either have no knowledge of countryside practices or as you quoted delusional.

As above by @VSS
If you "know" about raptor persecution taking place, then you have a clear duty to report it to the police. How many such incidents have you reported to the police?

If on the other hand this is just more bullsh1t....

 

[Mungo]

As above by @VSS
If you "know" about raptor persecution taking place, then you have a clear duty to report it to the police. How many such incidents have you reported to the police?

If on the other hand this is just more bullsh1t....

Don’t be obtuse. You know, I know, we all know it’s happening.

To pretend otherwise just makes us look either stupid or complicit.

And you know as well as I know that it’s close to impossible to get the Police interested in wildlife crime, and the burden of evidence means that it’s extremely difficult to build a case.

If you aren’t aware of cases, you’re either not actually doing much in the countryside, or you’re deliberately looking the other way.