Then the situation is a disgrace - its criminal report it - always.
Guardian - Golden Eagle Tag found near Grousemoor - who are these idiots ?
- Thread starter kes
- Start date
So, genuinely who would drive that change to achieve the satisfaction of shooters that their reputation is no longer 'at risk' and those who protect raptors ?
It has to be both coming together to remove the 'cancer' - Shooting Orgs and raptor groups even CP.
Otherwise moorland shooting is eventually going to die and the moors with it. I dont suppose anyone will take the lead ( BASC should do this) and we will see just open warfare continue with claim and counter claim. Perhaps now its easier to see the stupidity of saying "ONLY 100 people are responsible"
And therein lies our undoing: deliberately looking the other way.
If you know of cases then report them, otherwise you are complicit in those crimes.
Firstly, there's nothing obtuse about sticking to facts. We know that a small amount of raptor persecution is happening. Approximately one case per year. Above that level there are several dozen allegations per year. Extrapolated from that, by "activists", is a narrative, wholly unsupported by factual evidence, that shoots are systematically slaughtering raptors in an attempt to drive them to extinction. That narrative is not a fact.
As with the other fellow, if you know it, report it. How many of these crimes have you reported to the police? Some of it does happen. The vast majority of "cases" have no more substance or credibility to them than big cat sightings. Even the subject of this thread has no actual evidence of a bird killed by criminal means.
The burden of evidence is the same as for everything else, and the Police are disproportionately interested in wildlife crime. They have a dedicated national unit for it and its own website. They have that level of resourcing dedicated to very few other crimes.
I'm aware that a few cases happen, and I'm aware that a lot of people repeat, embellish and fabricate stories.
You may, for whatever crackpot reasons you have, wish to associate yourself with the views of a clique of extremists who consider private property and the rule of law to be intolerable impediments to the revolution. Many of the rest of us are sane.
The problem with your “narrative” is the flawed presumption that as you state there is only one case a year..... it’s not as you state wholesale slaughter but there are a cohort of “old school” pros and amateurs that believe the only solution for any predator of game birds is to kill it. It is impossible for you or I to estimate the numbers illegally killed. if you have been around shooting long enough you may never see the crime but You don’t have to witness to know it happens a lot more frequently than prosecutions.
My "narrative" doesn't assume anything but the facts. All the other nonsense depends on assumptions about something you're now stating is impossible to estimate, but you know it happens much more frequently because you need no evidence. There are certainly some problems with your approach.
I have done both, putting them on Sika stags. One of our aircraft went missing, or rather stayed static, hung on a branch in the river. They were collars and reflective so nobody would shoot them. However a stag with a thick mane didn't show the collar. I knew who shot it and it was a genuine error so I said nothing.
you have some Fekin neck saying we all know it’s going on and need to grow a pair, I have been involved in several syndicates over the years from paid days to diy syndicates of up to 20 members and have not in the last 10 years seen raptor persecution, before that yes it was not uncommon to hear a keeper brag about how he dealt with hook beaks. Times have changed in that regard and there maybe the odd keeper who is a takes his chances but in these times of trail cams and long range optics I don’t know anyone who thinks it’s worth risking his career and FAC just to take out a few birds. We had Goshawks arrive on a dIY syndicate shoot several years ago and they buggered it up in a matter of a couple of seasons, we had to abandon the ground despite trying every legal method to dissuade them. IF you know of wildlife persecution then YOU GROW A PAIR and report it but don’t spout your shyte accusing everyone else of knowing what you know and doing exactly the same as you are about it.
Did you just admit that prior to the last decade you saw raptor persecution ("have not in the last 10 years seen raptor persecution, before that yes it was not uncommon") to hear keepers brag about it ?
And yet you saw fit to do nothing about it.
And yet you accuse someone else, regarding wildlife crime, of needing to 'GROW A PAIR' and report it.
Must be interesting looking in the mirror in your house ...
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
These threads always depress me just how many folk, alleged country men and shooters are so quick to believe a lot of this nonesense.
Look I know it goes on but at a tiny level and most likely not with GE.
Wot harm do they do to grouse moors or game in general.
To be honest most keepers would prefer a GE to any other BoP as generally the bigger they are the less they're are and will keep smaller 1s away.
Now think of the practicalities of it.
From wot I can gather no body has been found, so absolutely no evidence of how it died, natural or otherwise.
But a tracker was found in the sea later in a lead box? How did the lead box float down the river? Where did he get the lead from? Have u seen the price of lead in roofing supply shops? Does he always walk about with lead sheets in his pocket just in case??
Just so far fetched.
I take it since not the 12th the bill for licensing grouse moors must be coming up shortly.
Just smacks of the stock shock horror story they save for maximum publcity.
If it was shot and stuffed down a rabbit hole with a heel throu the transmitter it would be far more realistic.
The SGA has long petioned for independant monitoring for trackers.
Ps Try asking the rspb themselves wot happened to the pair of nesting eagle owls on 1 off their own reserves? In area for a few months then disappeared completely within a few days of nesting on the reserve??
Common knowledge amount the nieghbouring keepers, but seemingly don't play well with HH so vanished
Also ask about the 14 HH nests on an island which all failed 1 year following year all successful, the difference is local nest monitor injured so not ' protecting' the nests.
Now say there is around 1 actual prosecutable case a year, and no doubt a few more investigated whether legitimate or not.
Still not a lot off birds a year and almost all BoP at record levels, that's quite some population rise in roughly 30 years since widespread persecution really stopped.
How many are killed by wind turbines???
Well documented in other counties and admitted here, yet no tracked bird ever hit 1, bollocks!!!
I'm not very computery but I know plenty on here are, the numbers are meant be be recorded and available online somewhere, and that came from the boy who does some of the survey work around the turbines
Look I know it goes on but at a tiny level and most likely not with GE.
Wot harm do they do to grouse moors or game in general.
To be honest most keepers would prefer a GE to any other BoP as generally the bigger they are the less they're are and will keep smaller 1s away.
Now think of the practicalities of it.
From wot I can gather no body has been found, so absolutely no evidence of how it died, natural or otherwise.
But a tracker was found in the sea later in a lead box? How did the lead box float down the river? Where did he get the lead from? Have u seen the price of lead in roofing supply shops? Does he always walk about with lead sheets in his pocket just in case??
Just so far fetched.
I take it since not the 12th the bill for licensing grouse moors must be coming up shortly.
Just smacks of the stock shock horror story they save for maximum publcity.
If it was shot and stuffed down a rabbit hole with a heel throu the transmitter it would be far more realistic.
The SGA has long petioned for independant monitoring for trackers.
Ps Try asking the rspb themselves wot happened to the pair of nesting eagle owls on 1 off their own reserves? In area for a few months then disappeared completely within a few days of nesting on the reserve??
Common knowledge amount the nieghbouring keepers, but seemingly don't play well with HH so vanished
Also ask about the 14 HH nests on an island which all failed 1 year following year all successful, the difference is local nest monitor injured so not ' protecting' the nests.
Now say there is around 1 actual prosecutable case a year, and no doubt a few more investigated whether legitimate or not.
Still not a lot off birds a year and almost all BoP at record levels, that's quite some population rise in roughly 30 years since widespread persecution really stopped.
How many are killed by wind turbines???
Well documented in other counties and admitted here, yet no tracked bird ever hit 1, bollocks!!!
I'm not very computery but I know plenty on here are, the numbers are meant be be recorded and available online somewhere, and that came from the boy who does some of the survey work around the turbines
Read the post insread of jumping to conclusions of guilt on my part or of any keeper, I said it was not uncommon to hear some brag about it, whether they did something or were simply bragging I do not know and neither do you. I did not in my post say I saw raptor persecution, this is a perfect example of " raptor persecution" that was assumed to have taken place, and the grow a pair comment did not originate with me. You really need to read a post properly before making accusations, it seems you prefer to side with others who need little evidence just like you.
Some windfarm bird kill data from a study in 2014 by the LSE
In addition to landscape impacts, biodiversity and habitat impacts are also often quoted as a matter of concern, particularly bird fatalities due to collisions with wind turbines. The evidence, however, shows that these are quite low. Worldwide avian fatalities have been reported at between 0.95 and 11.67 per MW per year, and bat fatalities range from 0.2 to 53.2 per MW per year (IPCC, 2011). Assuming that the UK’s onshore wind capacity will rise to 9,100 MW by 2020 (as in ENSG, 2012) bird fatalities could be between 9,600 and 106,000 per year. Although clearly undesirable, this is orders of magnitude lower than other anthropogenic causes of bird deaths. For example, 55 million birds are killed by domestic cats in the UK each year (McKay, 2008). In Denmark, about 30,000 birds were killed by wind turbines in 1997, while 1 million birds were killed by traffic (Andersen, 1998; see Figure 10). It should be noted that Denmark, at the time, had only about one fourth of the UK onshore wind capacity today – about 1,100 MW (Eurostat, 2012) versus 4,800 MW in the UK – and less than one-fifteenth of the vehicles – about 2 million in 1997 versus almost 32 million in the UK in 2008 (Eurostat, 2012). Although it is difficult to extrapolate from these data what the effects would be in the UK, it is clear that there is a significant difference in scale between the impact of wind turbines and of traffic on birds and that, if anything, in the UK this ratio might be even higher.
In addition to landscape impacts, biodiversity and habitat impacts are also often quoted as a matter of concern, particularly bird fatalities due to collisions with wind turbines. The evidence, however, shows that these are quite low. Worldwide avian fatalities have been reported at between 0.95 and 11.67 per MW per year, and bat fatalities range from 0.2 to 53.2 per MW per year (IPCC, 2011). Assuming that the UK’s onshore wind capacity will rise to 9,100 MW by 2020 (as in ENSG, 2012) bird fatalities could be between 9,600 and 106,000 per year. Although clearly undesirable, this is orders of magnitude lower than other anthropogenic causes of bird deaths. For example, 55 million birds are killed by domestic cats in the UK each year (McKay, 2008). In Denmark, about 30,000 birds were killed by wind turbines in 1997, while 1 million birds were killed by traffic (Andersen, 1998; see Figure 10). It should be noted that Denmark, at the time, had only about one fourth of the UK onshore wind capacity today – about 1,100 MW (Eurostat, 2012) versus 4,800 MW in the UK – and less than one-fifteenth of the vehicles – about 2 million in 1997 versus almost 32 million in the UK in 2008 (Eurostat, 2012). Although it is difficult to extrapolate from these data what the effects would be in the UK, it is clear that there is a significant difference in scale between the impact of wind turbines and of traffic on birds and that, if anything, in the UK this ratio might be even higher.
Tom D
Well-Known Member
As I see it it’s like this:
Some keepers kill raptors.
Most keepers don’t.
Given the confrontational and often illegal tactics of the antis I would not be surprised if the odd road killed raptor finds its way onto the nearest grouse moor.
Pretending that it doesn’t happen is as bad as the antis who pretend that every keeper is killing raptors.
Some keepers kill raptors.
Most keepers don’t.
Given the confrontational and often illegal tactics of the antis I would not be surprised if the odd road killed raptor finds its way onto the nearest grouse moor.
Pretending that it doesn’t happen is as bad as the antis who pretend that every keeper is killing raptors.
And yet, even though you knew of keepers who bragged about it, you did ... nothing, it seems. You didn't bring it to the attention of the police, or NE, or anyone who could investigate. You were happy to let it slide.
Yes, you had no evidence. But you had a claim from someone that they had committed a crime. If nothing else, the police knocking on that person's door would have made them a lot more wary about breaking the law in future. The authorities may have even, with investigation, have found evidence of a crime, and been able to prosecute.
If only you had the balls to actually do something about it.
And yes, you told, in your post, someone to 'grow a pair'. It was in reply to them saying something similar to you, but you did say it. I even put your quote in bold, for the hard of reading.
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
So, is this bird dead?
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Apparently so and despite no one finding the body they have also managed to tell exactly how it died.
Pretty clever really
The rspb doesn't just employ vets/pathologists that can actually talk to the birds but can also use a ouija board!!!
Do they have an annual seance around the end of July ready to get stories for the 12th???
U really couldnae make this sh*t up and yet even shooters swallow it wot chance do the general public have
Part of the issue is the huge media circus that Avery et al always whip up. If someone reads a report online it’s always taken as gospel.
Our estate has a bad name for raptor persecution and a former keeper was prosecuted and sacked for a pole trap offence.. however we also have the largest winter roost for Hen Harriers in England, the estate last year built a hide so the public can view them and the roost was watched and protected by the grouse keepers and natural England.
The hide is literally 500 yards from our farm house and yet it’s all quiet on the media front because it doesn’t fit the narrative..
Our estate has a bad name for raptor persecution and a former keeper was prosecuted and sacked for a pole trap offence.. however we also have the largest winter roost for Hen Harriers in England, the estate last year built a hide so the public can view them and the roost was watched and protected by the grouse keepers and natural England.
The hide is literally 500 yards from our farm house and yet it’s all quiet on the media front because it doesn’t fit the narrative..
This, copied from another site, puts a different potential explanation on the table - this confirms the truth has to be found.
Many on these forums have suspected that the 'antis' are falsifying evidence. Well, now there has been a conviction; Hunt saboteur gave police 'tampered' footage of assault
More background here; A Faker Convicted at Long Last
Many on these forums have suspected that the 'antis' are falsifying evidence. Well, now there has been a conviction; Hunt saboteur gave police 'tampered' footage of assault
More background here; A Faker Convicted at Long Last
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