As I said earlier this is a popular cross with hill keepers, seen some really good ones of course I don't suppose you will see the bad ones.
So many of them now that they have started breeding them to each other seem to breed true to type black rough coated labs with beards and most of the ones I have seen point, of course as I say maybe only seeing the ones that have turned out as they want them.
Never had one myself but have been impressed by the ones have seen
Have kept GSPs for years ever since I got bored of labs and spaniels, I like a challenge lol.
Best dog I ever had was a GSPx GWP.
Dickytolls
New Member
Have just posted my intro but have wonderful Pennine dog originally from around Raby who would (I think) make good sire!
I do agree with a lot of what Carl and Countryboy have said but......Sometimes you have to just go for it, if it is an itch you need to scratch. I can see the draw towards cross-breeding or out-crossing.
F1 first cross breeding is, strangely, similar to inbreeding in that you will get the dominant aspects of each parent. Thus, like inbreeding, whoever is organising the mating has to be brutally honest about the overall quality of the sire and dam and is there actually a negative characteristic that could come through in the mating. This is, of course, true in any mating.
The lurcher world still revolves largely around first crosses and if I was after a running dog now I probably would not hesitate in getting a first cross Bedlington x Greyhound rather than a lurcher to lurcher mating.
I suppose you have to honestly ask yourself what you expect/want the dog to do. Then question whether the 'average' outcome of this cross-bred mating (not just the stars) would do the task better than either of the purebred parents. If you genuinely think the crossbred would do the job better than either parent I would ensure that you researched as much as you could about the sire and dam, find out their dominant, natural traits - not their trained, adapted behavior - and make sure that you are happy with everything that you see.
F1 first cross breeding is, strangely, similar to inbreeding in that you will get the dominant aspects of each parent. Thus, like inbreeding, whoever is organising the mating has to be brutally honest about the overall quality of the sire and dam and is there actually a negative characteristic that could come through in the mating. This is, of course, true in any mating.
The lurcher world still revolves largely around first crosses and if I was after a running dog now I probably would not hesitate in getting a first cross Bedlington x Greyhound rather than a lurcher to lurcher mating.
I suppose you have to honestly ask yourself what you expect/want the dog to do. Then question whether the 'average' outcome of this cross-bred mating (not just the stars) would do the task better than either of the purebred parents. If you genuinely think the crossbred would do the job better than either parent I would ensure that you researched as much as you could about the sire and dam, find out their dominant, natural traits - not their trained, adapted behavior - and make sure that you are happy with everything that you see.
Lloyd90
Well-Known Member
Excellent post Carl.
It sometimes amazes me that people have put scientist like effort into creating certain breeds for generations and generations and some random bloke comes along and reckons they can improve on generations of design and breeding by throwing their Labrador over GWP and think it gives the dog some sort of magical hybrid powers.
I have to be honest, most people’s standards for what they require their dog to do are remarkably low. Go on any shoot, see the dogs making noise, running in, chasing birds, having a hard mouth etc etc, then at the meal afterwards sit and listen to their owners. They will have forgotten the fact that the dog did anything wrong and will most likely be telling everyone what a great dog they have and telling you about the 1 decent retrieve that they made that day
.Human optimism or kennel blindness can be a funny thing. I can’t see what a X breed dog could give you that a GWP or lab couldn’t offer.
The idea that you throw two dogs together and get all the benefits of both breeds shows extreme naivety, and on top of that is also now the reason that some previous breeds now have health conditions that they never used to have. I believe someone bred a cocker into a clumber line to ‘give them some hybrid vigour’ and they now have that eye disease that never used to exist in the breed.
Funny with the horses, champions rarely breed champions, but I know a bloke in the gundogs who said that top champion sires often produce good daughters, who go on to produce excellent son’s.
Some of the lads are keeping well documented records now and some of the best dogs or kennels really are producing some of the best stuff in the world. Helmsway kennels has been very successful in the springer world as of late.
Despite this, The best men and women in the world aren’t able to guarantee quality from breeding some of the best stuff in the world.
Now someone who is willing to breed their pure bred Lab or GWP to a completely different type of dog is:
- Not going to have the best bred stuff to begin with.
- Not going to have done tons of research into how breeding works and characteristics are given to pups.
- probably won’t have health tests both sire and dam.
Because quite simply, if they had done the above, they probably wouldn’t be breeding bloody cross breeds to begin with, thinking that they can produce a superior type of dog by 1 single breeding where people who dedicated their entire lives to certain breeds still can’t guarantee results like they claim!
Lloyd90
Well-Known Member
If you only see the ones keepers have kept, do we think they keep the bad ones that are no good or have faults?
Keepers aren’t there to collect dogs. If the dog is no good for the job at hand it’s gone (or shot!).
I’ve seen some of the hunting springers over in Ireland and was impressed with how well they hunt cover. I queried how they just seem to be out and out cover bashers even at a young age.
I heard back from several reliable sources that dogs are so cheap over there, if they are not smashing cover to pieces by around 10 months they simply shoot the dog!!!
They said “it costs as much to keep a bad one as a good one!!”
They end up breeding excellent hunters with excellent hunters generation after generation, because anything that isn’t an excellent hunters gets done in.
How many people over here do that? How many people even have the common sense to admit that their 90% pet 10% gundog isn’t up to being bred from?
See ads everyday on the FB gundog groups - “how do I put my gundog out to stud? He’s really well bred (they usually aren’t that well bred) and he has an amazing temperament... he would make such an amazing daddy!”...
Then you get the people who are more concerned with health tests than working ability. The dog should be health tested and health ... BUT it needs to be an amazing worker first and foremost.
I see the ones keepers keep and most are as wild as thunder and are definitely not trained!!!!
The standard of "dog training" in keepers these days is woefull, this can be seen when, on the last day on a moor this season tbere was 7/8 underkeepers in the beating line and not one, NOT ONE, had a whistle around his neck!!!!
The pointer x lab can be bought for about half the price of either a Lab or a GWP, if you're a young underkeeper who beating 3,4 or 5 days a week during the season you just want a few dogs, any dogs, to take, why wouldn't you spend half the money on a x breed rather than a pedigree Lab or GWP especially when, realistically, your not even going to train it?! I understand why they were popular, becoming less so now.
And as far as faults go, theyve got them in abundance!!!! Noise, bad mouth, chasing and generally being unrully.
A Lab x GWP will give the average stalking man absolutely nothing over a Labrador or a GWP other than saving them a few quid.
For all the crosses I've seen over the years I've seen maybe a couple that could have been stopped on the whistle and given and taken a direction, perhaps the "keepers" lab x GWP wasn't a good example?!
Last edited:
landkeeper
Well-Known Member
Well having lived in ireland for 35ish years now and being constantly involved with shooting all i can say to that is bollics
Most of the irish springers are very much rough shooting dogs that spend a lot of time hunting very rough demanding cover for woodcock and pheasants
There are plenty of the whimpy small pocket rocket ft types too
in the hands of a certain section of the shooting community
Suggesting that its because the bad ones just get shot is crazy imho believe me there are as many bad ones here as elsewhere
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
A few good posts above.
Not wanting to class all keepers and long dog/terrier men together but generally they will be far less tolerant of poor dogs that haven't made the grade.
And if the dog did survive but wasn't really that good they definately wouldn't be breeding of it
Traditionally these mongrals would pretty much be free to mates or very cheap so if the pup doesnt make the grade and needs 'balanced' it will be.
Often in these mongral breeders u get the classic line that's how the breeds were formed, which is 100% right but these breeders had a vision and tight new breed specs any pup/dog the wrong size or colour or any other temperament, training issues showed up at any time the dog would get a swiming lesson with a brick collar.
Ps I have 2 mongrals in my kennels so not anti mongral, springerdor and a gwpx lab ( from a similar area to Dicky's above) took it home from the grouse 1 day it was about to get a bullet, really don't rate it 1 bit, my pure labs can range further than it and hit cover harder than my springerdor for as gas a thin coat not a proper lab coat.
It was sitting shivering on my lap picking up on a duck flight the other night.
I don't think my gwpX would ever have been much of adog, although possibly with better training in its early years would definately be better than it is now.
Not saying I'd never have another mongral but I certainly wouldn't pay for 1 or go looking for 1 thinking I've reinventing the wheel.
And it would depend on the mongral X, breeding pointers X spaniels ( wot do u want a spaniel hunting 3 times out of shot range, instead of just the usual 1 range, that doesn't hold a point) or hounds to anything other than hounds is just daft
They can do a job and put game in the bag but u will most likely end up with a higher % of failures or poor dogs out of a litter.
But with all dog breeding u really never know how they will turn out u can only make the best guess after doing ur homework and assessing the dogs ur breeding are well suited, but not necessarily all red FTCH.
Not wanting to class all keepers and long dog/terrier men together but generally they will be far less tolerant of poor dogs that haven't made the grade.
And if the dog did survive but wasn't really that good they definately wouldn't be breeding of it
Traditionally these mongrals would pretty much be free to mates or very cheap so if the pup doesnt make the grade and needs 'balanced' it will be.
Often in these mongral breeders u get the classic line that's how the breeds were formed, which is 100% right but these breeders had a vision and tight new breed specs any pup/dog the wrong size or colour or any other temperament, training issues showed up at any time the dog would get a swiming lesson with a brick collar.
Ps I have 2 mongrals in my kennels so not anti mongral, springerdor and a gwpx lab ( from a similar area to Dicky's above) took it home from the grouse 1 day it was about to get a bullet, really don't rate it 1 bit, my pure labs can range further than it and hit cover harder than my springerdor for as gas a thin coat not a proper lab coat.
It was sitting shivering on my lap picking up on a duck flight the other night.
I don't think my gwpX would ever have been much of adog, although possibly with better training in its early years would definately be better than it is now.
Not saying I'd never have another mongral but I certainly wouldn't pay for 1 or go looking for 1 thinking I've reinventing the wheel.
And it would depend on the mongral X, breeding pointers X spaniels ( wot do u want a spaniel hunting 3 times out of shot range, instead of just the usual 1 range, that doesn't hold a point) or hounds to anything other than hounds is just daft
They can do a job and put game in the bag but u will most likely end up with a higher % of failures or poor dogs out of a litter.
But with all dog breeding u really never know how they will turn out u can only make the best guess after doing ur homework and assessing the dogs ur breeding are well suited, but not necessarily all red FTCH.
Last edited:
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
In the past it was definately the case, a keeper will move on or PTS a dog same as a farmer/sheep dog as they are a tool for a job not a family pet.
U still get plenty of folk work with sh*t or badly maintained tools.
I don't think they are just as ruthless as they used to be, my old head keeper went throu a hell of a dogs.
He always had good 1s but a lot also ended up in a hole or bottom of a pond
Aye dawnrazor I've seen some grouse keepers are happy if the dog is in the right drive ( considering some are miles long) and a bonus if it gets in the same motor as the keeper.
I mind quite a few years ago up north on grouse before I got my 1st gwp seeing a truely nasty aggressive bitch gwp and her while litter of lab X's.
Fought with anything, 1 bait time even seen them fighting with themselves as no other dogs to fight with nearby.
Often the dog would jump in back of haaglund 1st and snarl and snap as everyone else's had to climb past them while the keepers where in the front cab off the haaglund.
Put me off getting a wire for a long time
But to be fair there labs or spaniels weren't much better so not entirely the breeds fault
I'd put 2 mortgages on the percentage of bad tempered, growley fighting GWP and GWP x Lab is FAR higher than in Springers or Labradors!!!
That's one of the reasons you're seeing fewer of them over the last 5 or so years, people just get fed up of the downsides of them.
Just on say, the last 5 days Grouse this season there have only been 3 or 4 crosses, one guy with 3 GWP's and tbe rest of the dogs were either Labs, Springers or Cockers, this seems to be the trend over a lot of places now.
Lloyd90
Well-Known Member
Not saying they all do it, I said I’ve seen good spaniels who have come from lads who promote that.
There is some quality FT type dogs coming over from Ireland being used in the U.K. trial lines...
Your not the first lad who’s said to me that they think the trial bred dogs are wimpy (lack heart) and also someone told me they lack stamina as well.
Why do you find that then?
How do they compare to Irish rough shooting dogs?
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
I don't want to answer landkeepers question.
But I imagine a good Irish rough shooting dog will look and behave exactly like a good English/Welsh or Scottish rough shooter springer.
Most areas will be hunting similar types of ground and cover and expect there dogs to work all day..
Still plenty of decent working dogs n some areas that have not consistently went done the Ftch stud route and shrunk
Just as u get kennel blindness I also think u get FT blindness assuming just because it has won/done well in a FT it's the best dog for everything.
Beating line, picking up, wild fowlung, rough shooting all want slightly different traits.
As I've said before both show and FT are now so specialised thee breeding for different traits
But I imagine a good Irish rough shooting dog will look and behave exactly like a good English/Welsh or Scottish rough shooter springer.
Most areas will be hunting similar types of ground and cover and expect there dogs to work all day..
Still plenty of decent working dogs n some areas that have not consistently went done the Ftch stud route and shrunk
Just as u get kennel blindness I also think u get FT blindness assuming just because it has won/done well in a FT it's the best dog for everything.
Beating line, picking up, wild fowlung, rough shooting all want slightly different traits.
As I've said before both show and FT are now so specialised thee breeding for different traits
Very good points. I do also think that for some (certainly not all) mating together two working breeds immediately brings uniqueness and a bit of intrigue. I know a couple of writers who are constantly extolling the virtues of outcrossing/crossbreeding and, with equal measure, knocking pure breeds. These writers receive a lot of kudos because it seems to be very trendy to knock long-term pure-breeding and accuse pure-breeding of every fault known and then spread a load of nonsense that by mating together two unrelated breeds some 'super-dog' will be created. Sadly many gullible readers of popular sporting press believe such hype.
To add, on the topic of 'out-crossing' to improve a breed, the vast majority of advocates have no long-term plan on how the outcrosses will be used as upgrades to actually improve the pure-bred. They are in it for the short term and can't be bothered with a long term plan. Any dog...' individual' dog resulting from a cross-mating, that is half decent gets its virtues thrown out of all proportion and any failures (as mentioned above) get conveniently forgotten about.
Slightly off-topic but I guarantee that within the next 5 years one of the said writers will be promoting and perhaps creating a wire-haired Dachshund cross Dandie Dinmont. Now, this cross would interest me for sure. It would of course do nothing to improve the working dachshund half but could greatly improve the Dandie if ever used back in the registered gene pool, but herein lies the rub. Such advocates will not be bothered with a long term plan and will be all about short-term fame and publicity.
This can also be seen in Teckels/Dachshunds. It could almost be described as a hobby to get the dog through as many trials as possible. Yes, these trials can be diverse - boar pen, tracking, artificial earth, retrieving and with a lot of effort and patience many examples can pass all exams but that doesn't tell you anything about its 'natural' abilty - what does the dog have a natural desire to do...without all of the hard training. I am always far more interested in my own dogs 'natural ability' than what I can, with hard work, train them to do and I am always very open about what they are 'naturally' good at and what that naturally have little interest in. Only one of our teckels has naturally gone to ground, self-entering from 8 months. These points are far more important in breeding plans than what you can achieve with an awful lot of hard work.
The sheep industry replies on cross need animals for commercial production, as do most of the beef industry.
My lab springer x, had no working parents, but overhearing a fellow gun saying, "if Ziggy can't find it, it can't be found" says it all, her faults almost certainly due to my training.
My lab springer x, had no working parents, but overhearing a fellow gun saying, "if Ziggy can't find it, it can't be found" says it all, her faults almost certainly due to my training.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Aye. But there not overly bothered by temperament or training ability, scenting etc
Really all they want is body size and relatively healthy.
But did it not use to be against MAFF guidelines to own a cross bred bull ( pre bull beef days)
I know an old farmer I fenced with told me that when he saw a scabby looking bull on a farm he suspected was a cross.
He said in old days they'd come on farm and shoot it, that would be in the days they also done the same for rabbits and ragwort, send folk in to deal with them and charge/fine u for not dealing with it.
U'll still never see a farmer breeding with a cross bred bull.or tup.
And usually only better land do farmers get away with cross breeds and often only the 1 generation esp with sheep were most of wot u breed goes into the food chain.
Don't see many hill farmers cross breeding wether cows or sheep
Likewise if u go on farming forums why are farmers/shepherds not talking about X collies with other random breeds??
Cos they realise the collies do the job pretty well and have more sense.
If farmers were shooters they would be crossing huntaways, blue heelers and herding dogs from every country they could claiming how brilliant they are even if breed for very different sheep systems.
Kieth obviously knows wot he's talking about with breeding genetics etc.
That's the thing with outcrosses, say even as recent as 30 years ago u would have quite distinct local lines of labs or springers, pretty much just line bred on 1 or 2 estates, and the nieghbouring estate/other side of valley would have the same.
Which is wot Lloyd was on about too with regional working soringers
U didn't have to go far to find an outcross of the same breed, just different estate or occasionally an FT stud.
Now with modern breeding and folk travelling nationally to get studs or buy a pup a very few lines are independant off each other any longer and soon a lot of 'well' bred dogs will be linked to each other.
Be the largest small gene pool in the world, that's when u start looking at crossing different breeds in.
Hayduke
Well-Known Member
Nature vs nurture.
More dogs are screwed by lack of or poor training than out crossing with another working line.
Most working dogs are a relatively blank canvas. Easy temprement and some prey drive is what's needed. And I am not paying £1,500.
I sometimes wonder if the Kennel Club Committee purists views are down to breed snobbery, safeguarding high pup prices or their favoured breed.
A lot of the coursing and gypsy boys I knew were always out crossing their dogs (and horses).
Same applies with equines, mules, the American mammoth donkey George Washington developed, even the Suffolk Punch is a heinz 57.
Hill farmers and sheep round my way are often outbred, or crosses of crosses. Depending on farmers preference and conditions. Beltex, Blackface, mule, meatlinc all cross breeds.
The Luing cattle or the Blue Grey came about etc etc. Many upland herds are heinz 57 varieties.
Inherited genetic disorders are more of a problem with purebred dogs than working mutts.
More dogs are screwed by lack of or poor training than out crossing with another working line.
Most working dogs are a relatively blank canvas. Easy temprement and some prey drive is what's needed. And I am not paying £1,500.
I sometimes wonder if the Kennel Club Committee purists views are down to breed snobbery, safeguarding high pup prices or their favoured breed.
A lot of the coursing and gypsy boys I knew were always out crossing their dogs (and horses).
Same applies with equines, mules, the American mammoth donkey George Washington developed, even the Suffolk Punch is a heinz 57.
Hill farmers and sheep round my way are often outbred, or crosses of crosses. Depending on farmers preference and conditions. Beltex, Blackface, mule, meatlinc all cross breeds.
The Luing cattle or the Blue Grey came about etc etc. Many upland herds are heinz 57 varieties.
Inherited genetic disorders are more of a problem with purebred dogs than working mutts.
When I started out with dogs the best advice I ever had was - if you like a dog, use it’s sire
Thats why race horses - FT winners struggle to replicate, people use the fashionable one rather than the producer in MHO
Some crosses seem to gel - Lab xGWP seems to be one , but one guy I talked to who has had them for many years say the first cross ones are the ones to go for.
The subsequent crosses he found were poor
Good luck with whatever you choose
Thats why race horses - FT winners struggle to replicate, people use the fashionable one rather than the producer in MHO
Some crosses seem to gel - Lab xGWP seems to be one , but one guy I talked to who has had them for many years say the first cross ones are the ones to go for.
The subsequent crosses he found were poor
Good luck with whatever you choose
Similar threads
