Had a call the other day - unusual but from The Police

kes

Well-Known Member
Can anyone tell me whether it is in HO guidance that landowners MUST have more than £2 million personal liability insurance if they allow someone to shoot on their land, as the shooter is acting as their 'agent' ?
I had always believed that if anyone shoots on your land, however large, with permission and as a holder of an open cert, they could use what calibre they chose with your input - the implication of my phone call was that this is not so and is confined to the approved police calibre for the land, obviously this is not so either.
This MAY be a pre-cursor to changes to the status of 'open' certs. Equally, when did the Police start to insist as a legal requirement that anyone on a restricted cert must have £10m TP Liability insurance ?
Security of storage MUST be updated at each renewal and anyway after 5 years, to check if changes have been made which may not be considered safe, room changes etc - no personal problem with this but again - this MUST happen.
Details of all people who live in the house MUST be given, despite it not being on the renewal forms yet (and without their consent) - watch this space . How this may affect my certificate after 40 years without any challenge is questionable but clearly a degree of 'stricture' is being observed.
Finally some details of my firearms were incorrect in minor, almost irrelevant detail - the details were copied from the original certificates but the 'implication' was that I had submitted incorrect information.
Interestingly, the theoretical officer did not give his number at the start of the questioning merely that he was dealing with an application - not good practice on phone interviews.


I wonder is any orgs are picking up this kind of detail from their members - perhaps they know because the Police also stressed the absolute need (not yet a formal requirement ?) for a shooter to have third party insurance up to £10M - what is e.g. BASC's limit of liability - £10m. I dont know of any 'best practice' guidance that specifies this exact amount - does anyone?
 
I’d be interested to hear the legal justification for forcing landowners to have insurance (unless one is employed by them)
 
Ive recently had my ticket back after being opened and have not been asked any questions in relation to insurance on the landowners side of things, worrying of this is to be the case
I would have also thought that if the shooter has insurance, then it wouldn't be needed for the landowner or vice versa, strange indeed
 
Strange indeed. I would have asked for his number and told him I was hanging up and phoning my FAC department for clarification.
Not always the first thought when dealing with what you expect is the Police since 'attitude' is cited as being a factor in their 'assessments' - I will be doing so from now on. The relevant issue here though is how many Firearms departments/ people can you get hold of at any time. Willing to help but it now has to be 2 way.

Regarding the Third Party Insurance, perhaps they have been stung by claims ? Having approved the person and calibre for the land ? Maybe they can turn any claims onto the shooters insurance ? This is merely a hypothesis but why else as a Police force would you be bothered - unless of course its deemed a further 'control measure'.
If anyone wants detail, please PM me.
 
Your post includes a fair number of aspects.
- I don't think there is any law forcing landowners to have insurance for anything. It might be a condition of a loan agreement from their bank, but that is not the law.
- Equally possessing a FAC has nothing to do with insurance. You may shoot somewhere or be part of a club that asks you to have insurance but that is different. You can "self-insure" on your own land for example.

It just sounds like an overzealous inspector. I had one a few years ago who insisted on dropping my ammo allowances etc. I just went along with it and then got them lifted the next time. Just be civil and ride it out, get some hooting insurance (its probably a good idea anyway).
 
None of this is a surprise to me.
I was approached a few years ago on a farm we had the stalking on, with regards to insurance. I had already given a copy of my commercial insurance to the farmer, who it seems had forgotten. The NFU were asking him if anyone shot the farm, and what insurance they had.
The farm was only about 300 acres, and had a BB on it, which is now all turned over to a Wellness centre. Needless to say I don't stalk it anymore, but did pick up a further area nearby.

It has always surprised me that anyone who owns a rifle or shotgun, or applies for one, is not required to be insured for public liability. It is one of the first conditions in most if not all EU countries. Maybe the authorities have finally seen the large hole in the FA act, and now require any FAC or SG owner to prove they are insured before letting them loose in the countryside?
Most of us take out insurance with different organisations, which covers recreational stalkers and shooters. Its a bit different with commercial shooting. One only has to look at some of the offers to be taken out stalking on social media, where it says that the client must have insurance. Complete rubbish, if you paying to be taken out, its the guide that needs to be insured with full commercial insurance. NOT the client.
Even my vehicle is insured for business. Most of these part time guides etc, I bet have not insured their vehicle for business.
 
Just be civil and ride it out.
What? Just like the self-appointed leads of our shooting organisations did in 1996 after Dunblane with the advice to "maintain a dignified silence"?

Here we go: "The grassroots membership (of shooting organistaions) has been told to keep quiet in public because comment would merely fuel prejudice against guns in the wake of Dunblane. They are urged by BSSC secretary Patrick Johnson to maintain ``a dignified silence'' for the time being."

How did that work out?

The old adage is true. It is this: SILENCE GIVES CONSENT.
 
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Kes - Your first question is the interesting one.

Whilst Public Liability Insurance is not mandatory for a business, Employers Liability is. It's rather interesting that the "copper" suggests you are acting as the landowners agent, which if so and I would suggest you are not, would legally require him to have Employers Liability Insurance in place.

It's stretching the term "agent" far beyond your pay grade and I'm sure your "copper" would be advised so if it was brought to the attention of his legal chaps.
 
A farm business does have to have public liability insurance. It covers all sorts of eventualities, such as injury to people using public footpaths that run through the land, people using the land with permission, people using the land without permission (trespassers), delivery drivers entering the property, etc etc.
Maybe this is what was being referred to?
 
In truth, my mentioning these things is to make others aware but as individuals we can do very little. That is why, in my opinion, our representative organisations should be doing more, a lot more to monitor what is being asked and by whom and inform Police, who are wide of the mark that such requirements are not legal.
How many people new to the shooting world or on a first renewal would challenge the 'law' as stated by a Police representative ?
I am coming to the end of my shooting 'career' and want to see those who wish to continue, able to do so but it does appear that far from aiding the law-abiding shooter, the law is ratcheting down on all who hold guns using 'pseudo' law to cause concern, knowing that argumentative resistance is able to be used against the person concerned.
It may be just me but where a "Voice of Shooting" is so styled, these things are crucial and need the best efforts to push back on the ever tightening boundaries - very, very strongly, using the actual law as it stands or arguing for better law and nationally consistent interpretation. This latter aim requires facts - who is gathering any ?
Maybe I should try myself - it is however complex and not all FEO's have the same interpretation, let alone a single Police Force - so gross examples of non-compliance with HO guidelines needs collecting - although medicals was a prize one and which shooting org cared about that ?
 
A farm business does have to have public liability insurance. It covers all sorts of eventualities, such as injury to people using public footpaths that run through the land, people using the land with permission, people using the land without permission (trespassers), delivery drivers entering the property, etc etc.
Maybe this is what was being referred to?
I think your knowledge is rare (excepting farmers) and certainly not well known in the FEO's worlds - e.g. does a small farm/smallholding have the level of insurance required by the Police ? Ho is it they have any requirement at all related to firearms renewals - possibly the only part of the service still running in certain Police areas?
 
I think your knowledge is rare (excepting farmers) and certainly not well known in the FEO's worlds - e.g. does a small farm/smallholding have the level of insurance required by the Police ? Ho is it they have any requirement at all related to firearms renewals - possibly the only part of the service still running in certain Police areas?
Farmers' public, product and employers liability insurance are kind of "catch all" policies. I'm not aware of any specific association between these and firearms usage.
 
Farmers' public, product and employers liability insurance are kind of "catch all" policies. I'm not aware of any specific association between these and firearms usage.
Nor am I other than a catch-all £10 million third party liability protection which it has been suggested to me for the first time is now considered necessary. I get the impression that the Police will be telling those who allow others to shoot on their land that they need this cover, they dont but perhaps it will fall to shooters if the farmers are pressed as I have been ? - I will have to read the NFU policy again when I have a spare day or two.
 
It has been a condition for years on my certificate to have public liability insurance.

One of the areas I shoot has a written lease agreement absolving owners of all liability.

Since Im a member of three organisations that offer PL insurance it isnt really an issue for me. Accidents happen-Id rather be insured.
 
It has been a condition for years on my certificate to have public liability insurance.

One of the areas I shoot has a written lease agreement absolving owners of all liability.

Since Im a member of three organisations that offer PL insurance it isnt really an issue for me. Accidents happen-Id rather be insured.
You cannot be conditioned to to have public liability insurance for discharging a firearm. Since it is an annual policy - do the Police also specify you must surrender your certificate if you fail to provide PL Insurance ?
Forgive me but that condition is not a legal requirement and you have willingly accepted it because you think its a good idea?
 
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