Head shooting

[RCS Deer Management]

Which is better, a clean shot chest carcass, that has been extracted cleanly and moved to a chiller quickly as apposed to a head shot animal, opened up during gralloch, dragged through the mud and stuffed in a car for the rest of the day? Which is the better?

Neither are top teir carcasses. I would reject the poorly handled headshot carcass and class a tidy chest shot carcass as B grade. I would class a deer in prime condition, headshot and then handled and gralloched as A grade. In what other lines of business would you expect people to pay the same for two products despite one being better than the other. If head shooting upsets you then fine, don’t do it, but stop being upset when someone who does it well gets paid a premium for doing so.

 

[Deermanagement]

I wouldn’t be shooting at anything with a finger looped over the barrel!!

Yes, also noticed this. I guess ok if there's no pressure applied

 

[VSS]

Neither are top teir carcasses. I would reject the poorly handled headshot carcass and class a tidy chest shot carcass as B grade. I would class a deer in prime condition, headshot and then handled and gralloched as A grade. In what other lines of business would you expect people to pay the same for two products despite one being better than the other. If head shooting upsets you then fine, don’t do it, but stop being upset when someone who does it well gets paid a premium for doing so.

Absolutely this ^^^

 

[VSS]

I agree but - what if they refuse to take heart/lung shot deer?? That, for me, is simply wrong and totally irresponsible - it's win-lose mentality of the highest order and very short-sighted..

That would be their perogative. They're running a business, not a disposal service for stalkers.
I occasionally buy in carcasses to process and sell on. I accept head shot fallow prickets or young does only. Presented cleanly to my spec. I'm not interested in buying anything else.
I'm prepared to pay £4/kg for them, in skin, because I know that by buying in only the best I will still make a good margin, and the skill of the person supplying me with the carcass should be properly rewarded.

 

[Deermanagement]

Neither are top teir carcasses. I would reject the poorly handled headshot carcass and class a tidy chest shot carcass as B grade. I would class a deer in prime condition, headshot and then handled and gralloched as A grade. In what other lines of business would you expect people to pay the same for two products despite one being better than the other. If head shooting upsets you then fine, don’t do it, but stop being upset when someone who does it well gets paid a premium for doing so.

Neither are top tier, I fully agree, although dealers paying reduced value by as much as 75% for a carcass that in most instances they have no idea how it's been treated, is only a reason to make thier work easier and to increase thier margins. Proof of how a carcass has been dealt with post shot is easy to achieve and this should be the basis of price paid if the genuine reason for price differential is quality.

I head shoot the odd deer, so not an issue or upsetting for me, however, as shown in the video, we have someone who is caled upon increasingly to despatch wounded deer resulting from head shots and as previous, if anyone disagrees that a deer's head is not the most mobile portion of it's body, the part that often moves quickly, are either kidding themselves or have poor observational skills.

Head shots at distance are irresponsible, end of story. The best Olympic target shooters will not be able to produce the scores they do if the target is highly mobile, it's pretty obvious.

 

[Tim.243]

One can argue that the head shot carcass can sometimes bare no resemblance to better quality. Which is better, a clean shot chest carcass, that has been extracted cleanly and moved to a chiller quickly as apposed to a head shot animal, opened up during gralloch, dragged through the mud and stuffed in a car for the rest of the day? Which is the better quality carcass?

So head shot does not mean better, it does mean easier of course, but not that much easier.

Looking at some percentage weights I have on a spreadsheet for costing, chest apposed to neck....assume loss of one shoulder, and ribs from one side, 16% of overall carcass weight (the lower value cuts) as apposed to the 11% total loss of a neck?

And again looking at prime cuts selling costs, loosing a ribs and shoulder from one side according to my figures runs out at 8% of total sellig price whilst a total loss neck shot come out at 8.5%. These figures will vary according to individual's selling prices and animal sizes, but these figures were based on a 29.5kg carcass.

£2/kg against 50p/Kg is nowhere near a clear refection of venison loss from a chest shot animal. This os a 75% reduction on a loss that is less than 10%. Figures based on expanding lead bullets.

The best part is 11:10

 

[Deermanagement]

The best part is 11:10

Ahhhh....... give it a good swill out with a hose and the dealer will never know Head shot it would have been top grade

Of course, easier to manage on the smaller deer, muntjac, CWD in the home counties, so if I were a dealer, I'd be more concerned with the larger stuff, especially Ireland and Scotland where they have thier fair share of bogs

 

[Tim.243]

Ahhhh....... give it a good swill out with a hose and the dealer will never know Head shot it would have been top grade

Of course, easier to manage on the smaller deer, muntjac, CWD in the home counties, so if I were a dealer, I'd be more concerned with the larger stuff, especially Ireland and Scotland where they have thier fair share of bogs

My dealer doesn't take MJ or CWD as the time v value is not profitable and CWD taste like

 

[Keith Edmunds]

That would be their perogative. They're running a business, not a disposal service for stalkers.
I occasionally buy in carcasses to process and sell on. I accept head shot fallow prickets or young does only. Presented cleanly to my spec. I'm not interested in buying anything else.
I'm prepared to pay £4/kg for them, in skin, because I know that by buying in only the best I will still make a good margin, and the skill of the person supplying me with the carcass should be properly rewarded.

It is their prerogative but maybe it's time the deer management situation was looked at holistically as opposed to individual silos.

 

[HonestJohn]

This 100 %

Well deer are not vermin,

 

[Chris Richardson]

Well deer are not vermin,

why should it make a difference ? theyre living animals all the same , and to many deer are a pest i know many of my landowners feel that way

 

[tarponhead]

And to add, if you’ve not ****ed up head shot, you’ve not killed enough deer that is fact!

Which, to be fair to the video, was the message. The only justification given was economic and the conclusion was, if you are a recreational stalker and therefore don’t “need” to, then don’t.

I have passed up head shots and either been rewarded by being patient enough or gone home, empty handed but content.
But then, I’m an angler and therefore thrive on stories about the one that got away….

 

[VSS]

Well deer are not vermin,

That's no reason to treat them with any more or less respect when it comes to humane kills and following up anything that might be wounded.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

we have someone who is caled upon increasingly to despatch wounded deer resulting from head shots

Last season was the worse I have ever had for dealing with wounded animals that had been shot at by stalkers. Almost all were brisket skims resulting in the animal limping around with a shattered leg. They were in a dreadful state and without a doubt suffered massively. Should chest shots be banned because I have seen a rise in animals wounded from botched attempts? Of course not. Yes the head is the most mobile part of a deer, but if you spend enough time around deer you should be able to tell if the deer is going to hold its head still or not. As an aside, Iv seen far more animals wounded by amateurs chest shooting than by professionals head shooting. Maybe amateur stalkers should be banned and deer should only be managed by highly trained professionals? Obviously I don’t believe this, but I think it has more logic than banning head shooting.

 

[HonestJohn]

That's no reason to treat them with any more or less respect when it comes to humane kills and following up anything that might be wounded.

So you think spring traps like rat traps should be allowed for deer? Or banned for moles, mice and rats? Poison also ok for deer then?

 

[Chris Richardson]

So you think spring traps like rat traps should be allowed for deer? Or banned for moles, mice and rats? Poison also ok for deer then?

doesnt really make a lot of sense does it considering the size of trap that would be needed for deer ......

 

[tarponhead]

Last season was the worse I have ever had for dealing with wounded animals that had been shot at by stalkers. Almost all were brisket skims resulting in the animal limping around with a shattered leg. They were in a dreadful state and without a doubt suffered massively. Should chest shots be banned because I have seen a rise in animals wounded from botched attempts? Of course not. Yes the head is the most mobile part of a deer, but if you spend enough time around deer you should be able to tell if the deer is going to hold its head still or not. As an aside, Iv seen far more animals wounded by amateurs chest shooting than by professionals head shooting. Maybe amateur stalkers should be banned and deer should only be managed by highly trained professionals? Obviously I don’t believe this, but I think it has more logic than banning head shooting.

Which appears to be the trajectory in Scotland…

I badly chest shot a roe due to my incompetence in not checking my mod was screwed on tight. We found it and my guide shot it for me, but it was a salutary lesson that I won’t forget. It happens, so you need to be prepared to deal with the unexpected, as well as to minimise the chances of screwing up again. I don’t shoot enough to be confident with that small a moving target, as I regard a headshot to be.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

So you think spring traps like rat traps should be allowed for deer? Or banned for moles, mice and rats? Poison also ok for deer then?

No, the deer has a venison value whereas a rat hasn’t. The venison would spoil often before you check the trap. Also a spring trap big enough for a deer would be dangerous to people, dogs and livestock whereas spring traps for rats arnt. If in theory there was a spring trap that killed deer outright, wasn’t dangerous to other animals and allowed the venison to be used after then I can’t see a problem, however this is impossible. I don’t agree with poison for any mammal

 

[Chris Richardson]

Last season was the worse I have ever had for dealing with wounded animals that had been shot at by stalkers. Almost all were brisket skims resulting in the animal limping around with a shattered leg. They were in a dreadful state and without a doubt suffered massively. Should chest shots be banned because I have seen a rise in animals wounded from botched attempts? Of course not. Yes the head is the most mobile part of a deer, but if you spend enough time around deer you should be able to tell if the deer is going to hold its head still or not. As an aside, Iv seen far more animals wounded by amateurs chest shooting than by professionals head shooting. Maybe amateur stalkers should be banned and deer should only be managed by highly trained professionals? Obviously I don’t believe this, but I think it has more logic than banning head shooting.

nasty chest shots they should be banned !

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Which appears to be the trajectory in Scotland…

I badly chest shot a roe due to my incompetence in not checking my mod was screwed on tight. We found it and my guide shot it for me, but it was a salutary lesson that I won’t forget. It happens, so you need to be prepared to deal with the unexpected, as well as to minimise the chances of screwing up again. I don’t shoot enough to be confident with that small a moving target, as I regard a headshot to be.

And again, I don’t agree with the idea of banning amateur stalkers, my point was purely for the comparison I made.