Historic Proofing in Scotland

[ContinShots]

This is probably a question for gunsmiths or historians, but I noticed that the Gun Barrel Proof Act 1868 didn't originally apply to Scotland (or Ireland).

It wasn't until the passing of the Gun Barrel Proof Act 1978 that the 1868 Act (what was still in force) was extended to Scotland and (by that time) Northern Ireland.

I don't know much more about the history of proofing law than that, but how were firearms proof in Scotland prior to this, if indeed they were (which I assume they must have been in some way)?

Just a matter of interest as much as anything. Many thanks indeed!

 

[webley701]

Proofed at London or Birmingham as per the rest of the U.K.

 

[ContinShots]

Proofed at London or Birmingham as per the rest of the U.K.

But what required that? I cannot find a proof act specific to Scotland (or Ireland) and, as I said above, the Gun Barrel Proof Act 1868 when passed didn't extent to Scotland (or Ireland). If guns made in Scotland required proofing at those houses in England, what required it? Was there legislation that I have yet come across, was it done habitually but not a legal necessity, or was there another measure that required it?

 

[webley701]

I didn’t say it was ‘required’. The lack of legislation requiring a test didn’t stop the test being desired & performed - if only due to customer expectations.
Can you imagine the difficulties selling an unproofed firearm to a resident of the rest of the U.K. would have presented in the short & longer term?

As an aside - I’ve had several Scottish made (not just marketed) firearms dating from the late 1800’s to the 1930’s & all were proofed.

 

[ContinShots]

Not every country had a requirement for centralised proofing, the USA doesn't for example, so it need not be a barrier to purchase depending on the prevailing conditions in the country or region, hence why I've been trying to identity how it used to work in Scotland. I am simply trying to establish what, if anything, required proofing in Scotland prior to the formal application of the proofing acts here. If it was simply that there was an expectation that guns would be proofed in England, that's my answer, I am just surprised there isn't an statute law on the subject, hence why I was asking if i have overlooked it.

 

[MAH]

If guns made in Scotland required proofing at those houses in England, what required it?

It might have been considered "a commercial necessity" in Scotland, rather than legal one. I.e.
if the "competition" in England were producing "safe" guns, then gunsmiths in Scotland may have felt the need to keep with the latest developments.

M.

 

[ContinShots]

It might have been considered "a commercial necessity" in Scotland, rather than legal one. I.e.
if the "competition" in England were producing "safe" guns, then gunsmiths in Scotland may have felt the need to keep with the latest developments.

M.

Could well have been, yes. Many thanks for the input. I'm just interested in finding out the history of it. None of the UK's firearms law books cover it. They just default to the situation as it had been in England & Wales since the mid-1880s, but that leaves what was the half the UK without proofing acts, so as someone who like to understand where laws and customs come from, I've been trying to establish what the state of play actually was. So far, nobody seems to actually know. At this rate, I may have to email Jonathan Ferguson at the Royal Armouries and see if they know!

There seemed to be quite a reasonable gun making industry in Scotland (albeit not the same scale as Birmingham etc), focused around Dundee and Doune as much as anywhere in the 1700s, but much of that was ruined by Westminster's Act of Proscription and while things did improve a bit after that was repealed, it never fully recovered. Information is quite patchy in the 1800s, but there's still nothing obvious about proofing that I can find online, just makers and styles.

 

[Heym SR20]

If you go back to the height of Scottosh gunmaking in the late 1800’s early 1900’s Scotland was North Britain, Glasgow was the second city of Empire and Scotland was very much part of the UK as a whole. There was none of SNP nonsense.

So Legislation such as Gun Proof which covered the whole of the UK covered the whole of the UK of which Scotland is an integral part.

The Scottish Guntrade was close to the rest of the British with a big cross fertilisation of ideas, skills at talents. The main British firearm if the 2nd half of the 1800’s the Martini Henry used the Henry rifling developed by Alexander Henry.

Scotland had its gunmakers building in particular the round actions. It was a simple matter to put them on the train at Edinburgh Waverley station - Dickson, Mortimer and Henry’s workshops were all 5 minutes walk and London proof house is not far from Kings Cross so sending to proof was easy enough. Down proofed and back in a couple of days.

Many of the lesser quality Scottish guns - the boxlocks etc were guns mass produced in Birmingham and were proofed prior to be sold to Scottish gun emporia for final finish work. Some did and still make every thing in house.

There was also a lot of crossover between the London and Scottish trade with a lot of the outworkers doing work for all the different players. Especially on the engraving side - Celtic Scroll, rose and scroll etc all would have particular engravers who were well versed, so if you wanted celtic scroll on your london made gun, chances are it would engraved in Scotland and vice versa.

 

[dropmdead]

I ask my dad as he was a Glasgow gun engraver (general/heraldic engraver) and see if he was aware of the situation. His work shop was above one of the Glasgow gun makers in the city centre.

 

[enfieldspares]

I ask my dad as he was a Glasgow gun engraver (general/heraldic engraver) and see if he was aware of the situation. His work shop was above one of the Glasgow gun makers in the city centre.

What's Dad said?