How many .243's are Deer legal ?
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Paul at Fechan
Well-Known Member
You shoot elephant in the head. In the same way polar bears have been kills with rimfire's. Not the same as a chest shot where delivery of energy and damage to the vitals is the lethal factor. Big difference
Uncle Buck
Well-Known Member
There was me thinking you were a staunch 270. man mark........!
Rgds, another Girly Gun Lover.
I'm chopping my .243 in for an FAC air rifle following a video I saw
Like this one ....
or here's another....
I'd rather stick to a 243, a hell of a lot of money for an airgun.
Rgds, Buck.
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bewsher500
Well-Known Member
To reach 1700ftlbs with :
100g – 2767 ft/s (VV max data between 2753-2904 ft/s)
90g – 2917 ft/s (VV max data between 2963-3123ft/s)
85g – 3001 ft/s (VV max data between 3025-3205 ft/s)
http://billstclair.com/energy.html
Most of these loads are relatively hot and either already within the max data range or up around 93-95% of max load velocity data (23" test barrel, test conditions etc etc)
If you are going to be pedantic then something worth considering is that a 1 deg drop in temperature can produce as much as 4ft/s drop in MV!!
Stalking hinds in the highlands in Jan at -5deg when you chrono’d you loads in Summer in Surrey at 20 deg?……… 50-100ft/s
Is your rifle shorter than the 23" test barrel in the data? - 50-100ft/s per 1" chop
Makes no odds in my opinion, no-one is ever going to be prosecuted unless "they" can demonstrate that the actual issue is animal welfare through undue suffering.
No way of proving what speed the bullet(s) that shot the animal were the same MV as the rest of those in the magazine/bullet pouch!! (unless of course the calibre is way off and the MV is significantly different to deer legal energy
100g – 2767 ft/s (VV max data between 2753-2904 ft/s)
90g – 2917 ft/s (VV max data between 2963-3123ft/s)
85g – 3001 ft/s (VV max data between 3025-3205 ft/s)
http://billstclair.com/energy.html
Most of these loads are relatively hot and either already within the max data range or up around 93-95% of max load velocity data (23" test barrel, test conditions etc etc)
If you are going to be pedantic then something worth considering is that a 1 deg drop in temperature can produce as much as 4ft/s drop in MV!!
Stalking hinds in the highlands in Jan at -5deg when you chrono’d you loads in Summer in Surrey at 20 deg?……… 50-100ft/s
Is your rifle shorter than the 23" test barrel in the data? - 50-100ft/s per 1" chop
Makes no odds in my opinion, no-one is ever going to be prosecuted unless "they" can demonstrate that the actual issue is animal welfare through undue suffering.
No way of proving what speed the bullet(s) that shot the animal were the same MV as the rest of those in the magazine/bullet pouch!! (unless of course the calibre is way off and the MV is significantly different to deer legal energy
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Max loads in .243 with the correct powder and 90grn bullets all appear to give velocities in excess of 3000 fps.(see lyman 49th edition etc.) If an appropriate bullet has been used and expanded properly surely it has done its job by the time it exits? atb Tim
Frank Homes
Well-Known Member
Paul at Barony
'You shoot elephant in the head'
Not always, body shots are perfectly acceptable.
F
'You shoot elephant in the head'
Not always, body shots are perfectly acceptable.
F
paul k
Well-Known Member
90gr Nosler Partition, 40gr H380 = mv 3045ft/sec 1860ft/lb give or take - imo you shoot to your ability/equipment capabilities, if I am out stalking with the .243 then anything under 150yds is as dead as a dead thing provided I do my bit, however if a Roe/Munty/Fox presents a shot at 150+yds then it would be taken, should any of the larger species turn up it would be a close the gap or not take the shot situation, if I expect shots to be taken at the further out distances ie hill or open land then it would be .308 time launching 168grains of good news.
If you shoot enough then you will get runners, then forget muzzle velocities/ bullet calibre its the 22kg of GWP that sorts things out....
i dropped a 105kg in the jacket red stag at 135 yards with my .243, it took a couple of strides and was stone dead. When we opened it up the heart was smashed to bits by the 100grn round - good enough for me!
http://www.thegearach.co.uk/deerstalking/reddeer.htm
"We recommend a minimum calibre of .270 with 150 grain bullet. Please check with us before selecting your choice of calibre."
fraser
"We recommend a minimum calibre of .270 with 150 grain bullet. Please check with us before selecting your choice of calibre."
fraser
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Cut+Squirt
Well-Known Member
I have the ground {with the deer on it} to support an application for virtually any UK deer calibre . . .but I have just bought a .222 as my main roe rifle . . . . .
.308 for anything bigger....
.308 for anything bigger....
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oh god..... 243 rant time. The .243 is not anything more than a foxing calibre that's good for roe. Comparably a 17hmr shooting roe deer is more powerful than a 243 shooting a red stag, here's you maths and no I'm not saying it is legal or acceptable to shoot a deer with 17hmr:
17hmr v's 40lb roe deer (assume for the story it's a 'hunting' style bullet not v-max)
Bullet energy at muzzle 240 ft/lb
Deer live body weight 40lb
Energy delivery = 6ft/lb per live weight pound
243 v's 300lb red deer (assume the bullet actually meets legal energy in England for the large deer1,700ft/lb)
Bullet Energy at muzzle 1,700ft/lb
Deer live body weight 300lb
Energy delivery = 5.7ft/lb per live weight pound
Er hello, your .243 kung foo is not strong..... it is weak like baby mouse!
If you don't believe me about the energy to live weight correlation then consider the reaction of the example deer shot with the energy discussed assuming a 'good' chest shot. Both deer will jump and run before collapsing shortly after, but hit them badly and you're looking at a wounded and suffering deer if a lethal follow up is not made.
The maths are good, and the logic makes sense, in a manner of speaking, but the bullet isn't surrounding the whole animal to deliver a crushing blow, it is delivering whatever amount of energy it has left, into a space which is 0.243" in diameter.
The rest of the animal is irrelevent as far as the energy is concerned....awiting incoming!
Notwithstanding bodged head/neck shots are statics available for the number of lost red/fallow/sika subject to a chest shot out to 300 yards using but an 85g bullet from a 243?
K
K
Leon
Well-Known Member
Exactly, reasonable distance, decent bullet = a very dead thing!
Tamus
Well-Known Member
Since the question was not "How many .243's can kill deer?" but was, in point of fact, "How many .243's are deer legal?"
My answer is, most (probably all) factory rifles will generate the "legal" minimum muzzle energy levels, using factory ammo and bullets of appropriate weight for the part of the uk that you want to shoot deer in.
However, I know that many .243's are no longer in the condition that they left the factory in, they've been shortened to quite astonishingly stubby little things. 14.5" being the shortest I've encountered so far, and when coupled with "accuracy" home-loads that are often well short of max anyway... lots of these will not meet the requirements of law, they'll not even be anywhere close to reaching the performance that our laws require... but they may still be very effective on deer, to moderate ranges... None of this is my cup of tea... neither breaking the law nor going with marginal performance equipment. The laws may seem assish... but knowingly breaking them or, possibly worse still, breaking them in total ignorance is no less assinine. IMHO.
My answer is, most (probably all) factory rifles will generate the "legal" minimum muzzle energy levels, using factory ammo and bullets of appropriate weight for the part of the uk that you want to shoot deer in.
However, I know that many .243's are no longer in the condition that they left the factory in, they've been shortened to quite astonishingly stubby little things. 14.5" being the shortest I've encountered so far, and when coupled with "accuracy" home-loads that are often well short of max anyway... lots of these will not meet the requirements of law, they'll not even be anywhere close to reaching the performance that our laws require... but they may still be very effective on deer, to moderate ranges... None of this is my cup of tea... neither breaking the law nor going with marginal performance equipment. The laws may seem assish... but knowingly breaking them or, possibly worse still, breaking them in total ignorance is no less assinine. IMHO.
Re small calibres against large animals...
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm
A journalist once asked Mr Bell about his use of the 7 x 57 against elephants, commenting on how many other "hunters" were being killed by said elephants when it all went wrong.
Bell thought for a moment and said.."I use that calibre, but I have never recommended it".
fraser
fraser
http://www.chuckhawks.com/bell_elephants.htm
A journalist once asked Mr Bell about his use of the 7 x 57 against elephants, commenting on how many other "hunters" were being killed by said elephants when it all went wrong.
Bell thought for a moment and said.."I use that calibre, but I have never recommended it".
fraser
fraser
HotDogsForTea
Well-Known Member
How many of you have checked if your .243 is Deer legal ?
my reloads as below using f1,
87g Hornady. 3123fps gives 1884ft/lb.
105g Hornady. 2951fps gives 2030ft/lb.
Dead is dead.
my reloads as below using f1,
87g Hornady. 3123fps gives 1884ft/lb.
105g Hornady. 2951fps gives 2030ft/lb.
Dead is dead.
oh god..... 243 rant time. The .243 is not anything more than a foxing calibre that's good for roe. Comparably a 17hmr shooting roe deer is more powerful than a 243 shooting a red stag, here's you maths and no I'm not saying it is legal or acceptable to shoot a deer with 17hmr:
17hmr v's 40lb roe deer (assume for the story it's a 'hunting' style bullet not v-max)
Bullet energy at muzzle 240 ft/lb
Deer live body weight 40lb
Energy delivery = 6ft/lb per live weight pound
243 v's 300lb red deer (assume the bullet actually meets legal energy in England for the large deer
Bullet Energy at muzzle 1,700ft/lb
Deer live body weight 300lb
Energy delivery = 5.7ft/lb per live weight pound
Er hello, your .243 kung foo is not strong..... it is weak like baby mouse!
If you don't believe me about the energy to live weight correlation then consider the reaction of the example deer shot with the energy discussed assuming a 'good' chest shot. Both deer will jump and run before collapsing shortly after, but hit them badly and you're looking at a wounded and suffering deer if a lethal follow up is not made.
Here we go again.
Chest shot still perfectly legal on elephant unless you know different? but just for the sake of argument, forget the elephant, how about:-
375 h&h @ 4260 ftlbs (Federal 300gn partitions) on 2000lb cape buffalo 2.13 ftlbs per lb weight
Or
458 win mag @ 4846 ftlbs (federal 500gn bear claw) 0n 2000lb cape buffalo 2.423 ftlbs per lb weight
And how does the theory of muzzle energy against quarry weight take into account the amount of energy retained by a bullet when it exits? just for example a 243 that did'nt exit compared to a 308 that exited whilst still retaining a couple of hundred ftlbs of energy?
And how does the theory of muzzle energy against quarry weight consider different bullet types ie:- a solid vs an expanding bullet? according to this theory they perform the same so if this is correct why does the law direct us to use expanding bullets on deer at all?
A 243 will kill deer fine.
If you don't shoot too well or if you are one of those people that feel the need to take marginal shots or risky shots for whatever reason its probably not the gun for you.
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