Spot on answer Eric, if more people had this kind of attitude we would soon be seeing the price of stalking drop.
How much are willing to pay for your stalking ? and How far are you willing to travel?
- Thread starter Tulloch
- Start date
Or we'd all be sitting around twiddling our thumbs while the contractors move in
It always amazes me ,the grief and abuse directed towards you David, from what I've seen, you're always open,honest and helpful. I left one of the Facebook deer groups recently as all they did was slag you off.
In response to your question, I'd quite happily pay £1000 for a syndicate place where I kept the carcasses, closer to home the better but I'd happily travel to the highlands from the fens.
In response to your question, I'd quite happily pay £1000 for a syndicate place where I kept the carcasses, closer to home the better but I'd happily travel to the highlands from the fens.
tikka_madras
Well-Known Member
Honestly? I’d pay quite a lot for a piece of pretty ground where I could come and go as I pleased, hammock for the night if I wanted, take in the scenery and shoot a few deer for the freezer, maybe do a more serious cull in the winter. A syndicate of like minded gents would be heaven. I think £1000ish for a syndicate is pretty cheap these days and if there are plenty of deer that looks very good value to me, particularly when you think you can easily spend that on a pheasant day or two.
Thankyou Mat
I don't truly mind the grief I get , I have to admit though the number of screenshots over the very thing you were talking about were crazy . I did try and converse with the guy to see what his issue was but he refused to reply and all because I wanted to join the group which as the title said no admin.
As far as the the questions I put in my OP goes I am kinda getting the idea of what is going on and pretty much what I thought.
This genuinely had nothing to do with the syndicate places I sell I just wanted to gauge the thoughts of stalkers.
I always thought it strange the mentality of what different people think is value for money and not . I could never understand why some people would rather pay between £1500 and £5000 for one days stalking but the same will refuse to pay £1200 for a years lease and in fact get very touchy about the even the thought of a syndicate being offered.
I had an American fishing guest just last week that told me he got charged £7000 by a Scottish estate so his 80 year old father could get a Royal. I was flabbergasted, I would have tried to get him one for around £500 .
I struggle to understand the whole thing when it comes to what stalkers and shooters think is value for money, I know guys with £2500 scopes on £1700 rifles who refuse to for BASC because it is too much money.
It is a personal thing for all of it and there is plenty of advice out there, I have had guys come to me in regards to advice on buying stalking set ups that have went with their own opinion paid £800 for HAwke scopes that are just not suitable for stalking then come to me a a couple of weeks later and tell me they want to sell their Hawke as its no good.
It is in the end each to their own.
I am not mocking Estate days, but Estate days are not for the average reccy stalker who wants to shoot every weekend or even once a month, estate stalking is an experience, Once a year or even once in a lifetime experience not for every weekend, if you can afford it then fair play .
Just my thoughts in the end
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
Mark Twain is reputed to have stated that they are not making any more land and the UK is a small island with 60-80 million residents according to Tesco & co.
Deer guides grab/reserve what they can to enable making a living from it and the rest of us get the rest of the ground to split up so the more you put into it the more you will get out from it. No free lunches out there.
Deer guides grab/reserve what they can to enable making a living from it and the rest of us get the rest of the ground to split up so the more you put into it the more you will get out from it. No free lunches out there.
I also think, with respect, it has something to do with a dislike for paying 'the middleman'. ie. people don't mind paying for stalking leases if done directly through an estate or to a landowner, but a lot find it distasteful for someone to rent a stalking ground for lets say £1,000 and then syndicate it out to 10 people at £1,000 each...especially if the syndicate owner then also takes his own stalking clients out when no one is 'booked in' and may even contract out culling on OOS or night licenses etc. I'm not pointing fingers, but this happens an awful lot, so people are always going to be sceptical of others trying to profiteer and take advantage..
I know of several places where all of this goes on, members get screwed royally and both the estate and middleman get their pockets filled.
I think the whole issue with that "gentleman " boils down to jealousy.
I agree with you on the money thing, I've a young family as well and the estate days and the big trophy fees are just massive prices that don't seem great value for money to me in terms of the stalking to get to do, I'd much rather pay a syndicate fee and come and go when I please.
I'm lucky in that I look after a small area near to home for muntjac and roe, it keeps my freezer full and all it costs me is my time controlling rabbits.
I'm always looking to shoot something different and in different terrain and a syndicate is a good way of getting that. I've never had the chance to shoot in Scotland, and it's something I'm going to look into in the next couple of years.
I know some don't agree with paying for shooting, but let's face it, in an ever growing area of the sport, with landowners seeking to make more profit, it's something that the good majority of us will have to do.
I understand that a little, however, until you actually know the business model you would understand that the cost of say a wood would be outwith being viable to the average person and the "middleman" makes the cost more affordable.
I don't wanna get into how the back office stuff works as I have been through all that before, I have heard all the rumours etc . but I only know how ours work and it does not work like that . Lets just say we purchased a lease recently for a wood that cost us £11k plus VAT and put 3 guys on it and I can assure you that those 3 guys will be the only ones shooting that wood and they paid a grand each a year, to allow that to happen the company I work for had to pay a further £20k as the only way we would get one wood was to take all three, That is the model we have to work with and it is completely unviable to ask individuals to be able to do that along with all the commitments involved. All in all it is a double edged business with pressures from both sides.
Anyways I digress and if that is your reasoning I can fully understand and respect that, I just have to say a lot of guys lose out on affordable stalking because of a few myths and a few bad apples that is a shame.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
I am not bothered by it as supply & demand runs the world, just stalking is getting more popular and the sq mileage in the UK is still the same. USA leases are going up too due to population increases there.
I am blessed to have all my stalking that I can handle on my doorstep over here in germany (1/2 km away).
I will be investing some time doing the same shortly...
...I am essentially a recreational stalker and have previously paid for a few days out each year. But the cost of those days out here in Devon has leapt up in recent times: now circa £400+ for a single successful Roe buck stalk in which you keep the carcass.
Per posts above, £1500 p.a. syndicate membership on a good tract of land would pay for itself in 4 outings. But before I go down that road, I will see if I can secure access to any local farms for some kind of quid pro quo [will chop wood, fix fences, shoot vermin] in return for deerstalking.
Chasey
Well-Known Member
In my business I am often asked by clients for a breakdown in cost by labour and materials. And I say that's not possable
,When costing out a contract theres, labour, materials, administration insurance accountancy advertising costs maintenance of tools and equipment rubbish disposal petrol parking congestion charge and on and no the list goes into what makes up the job cost
With syndicats it seems like theres the same blinkered view of what goes into acquiring the land, maintaining relations with the owner,enabling the cull and managing the members
Just in terms of aquireing the land. We have 5 permissions, at a rough guess I reckon I have approached over 100 land owners and wasted significant time on 20-30 of those that eventually fizzeled out
On a 1000 acre sit in Westrum (Squerries) I spend about four months, countless emails, two site meetings and about 10 days walking the permission and doing a method statement & risk assessment. We agreed a price of £5000 and I was awaiting the meeting to sign the paperwork when I got a call to say sorry theyd given the cull to a mate of one of the farmers on the land??????
In my main job I set my value at 250 a day. That's what I price my time at. About the same as id pay a plasterer or carpenter as a subcontractor with is own tools van insurance etc.
so that's about 31.00 per hour
God help my syndicate members if I start charging out my time running the syndicate at 30 per hour and sticking on 45p a mile for the leg work
,When costing out a contract theres, labour, materials, administration insurance accountancy advertising costs maintenance of tools and equipment rubbish disposal petrol parking congestion charge and on and no the list goes into what makes up the job cost
With syndicats it seems like theres the same blinkered view of what goes into acquiring the land, maintaining relations with the owner,enabling the cull and managing the members
Just in terms of aquireing the land. We have 5 permissions, at a rough guess I reckon I have approached over 100 land owners and wasted significant time on 20-30 of those that eventually fizzeled out
On a 1000 acre sit in Westrum (Squerries) I spend about four months, countless emails, two site meetings and about 10 days walking the permission and doing a method statement & risk assessment. We agreed a price of £5000 and I was awaiting the meeting to sign the paperwork when I got a call to say sorry theyd given the cull to a mate of one of the farmers on the land??????
In my main job I set my value at 250 a day. That's what I price my time at. About the same as id pay a plasterer or carpenter as a subcontractor with is own tools van insurance etc.
so that's about 31.00 per hour
God help my syndicate members if I start charging out my time running the syndicate at 30 per hour and sticking on 45p a mile for the leg work
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
Agree mate ,break downs are a no no for me too .Im guessing your in the building trade and my rate is the same @250 per day .
If leases are run on an open and truthful understanding then for me there is no problem but some of the underhand shite described is the reason I won’t commit without recommendations ,something you yourself Tulloch wont do for the reasons you’ve described to me .
We really do need a section where honest unbiased feedback is available so lads like myself ,living miles away can have some understanding as to what to expect .
However truthful you are it’s easy to leave out certain things and still tell the truth about others .
I would love a lease on the reds but hold back due to the stories I hear on exactly the goings on described and know that if I did take it on and found some sort of underhand dealings ,it wouldn’t end well.
If leases are run on an open and truthful understanding then for me there is no problem but some of the underhand shite described is the reason I won’t commit without recommendations ,something you yourself Tulloch wont do for the reasons you’ve described to me .
We really do need a section where honest unbiased feedback is available so lads like myself ,living miles away can have some understanding as to what to expect .
However truthful you are it’s easy to leave out certain things and still tell the truth about others .
I would love a lease on the reds but hold back due to the stories I hear on exactly the goings on described and know that if I did take it on and found some sort of underhand dealings ,it wouldn’t end well.
Hi mate
I get totally what your saying, but stories in the end are just stories and unfortunately a lot of guys miss out on some real good opportunities because of those stories.
All our places are full now, and look at things right now at this time of year there is not much stalking going on by us and definitely NO lamping, but these people throwing rumours about would have you believe otherwise.
At least 3 of our syndicated woods have neighbours who are reputable stalking companies and are members of this forum (not naming names as that is unfair) and they know for a fact that no matter what time of year it is there will NEVER be out of season or night licenses allowed and that is because they are multi ownership properties. Another thing those people would have you believe was untrue.
Our business is watched closely not just by the authorities but also by the community so those who are our neighbours or who know the real truth of what is going on know what is being said is bollocks.
We have 68 members over a large area and none of our syndicate woods have more than 6 people on them, in fact one of our biggest syndicated woods have only 2 members on it. I cannot comment on other peoples business but each member I have spent at least 8 hours each with, whether it is running paperwork or talking to police on their behalf or just answering questions and most of that is unpaid, I do not complain about that what so ever. What I do complain about is the 60 or so hours in the last three months that I have had to put in unpaid time for in regards to timewasters. For every 1 member signed up I have probably spoke to 10 to 20 others and some of them could have just read the advert past the first two lines.
I AM NOT COMPLAINING about those who have genuine reasons for not taking a placement, do not get me wrong I don't believe in a hard sell, I advertise and allow people to make the decision to contact me and decide whether it is for them or not, so generally I only get involved with an individual after they have made contact with me first.
What I do find very amusing is the emails I get telling me how bad the syndicates are that some guys or on or on the other hand the odd one that feels the need to contact me to tell me they have 8000 acres of open hill they can stalk on for free.
I do what I do because I love being able to give folk a chance that do not often get a chance . we sell unaccompanied days where you get to keep your carcass for £350 plus VAT as well as guided whole days for a little bit more, which is fair enough but the real bargain is in our syndicated woods.
The industry as a whole is full of myths, lies, have's and have not's,, it is stupidity in the end.
Put the abuse I receive aside as I get it! some guys really do not like syndicates and yes there should be a place for honest feedback but there is an issue, stalkers in general are a private bunch, stalking as a whole is not really a social activity. Lads and Lassies that stalk do so because they like being out there on their own whether they are shooting or not and the last thing they want is the world knowing where they spend there hard earned cash on and to be fair the less people in their syndicate for them the better.
I have heard people tell me that stalkers are too secretive, if they see a big deer they do not wanna share their hidden hot spots etc and that is like fishing. If you want to socialise Game shoot and that is a fact. Yes stalkers wanna come home and share their stories but they want to experience that story on their own in general.
Over the last few months I have a lot of people come to me with feedback praising how easy our process is, that is because we believe all the hard work should be done by us. All we ask is payment, a few documents emailed over and a signature the rest we sort out and that is why a lot of guys choose us. If I have the time I will make time for everyone that needs it, it is as simple as that.
Thank you for all your honest replies negative and positive and as I said in the beginning all the feedback is welcome as it helps me to work out what folk are looking at so I can try tailor what I offer to people. Maybe that is the issue, maybe I am too honest and too vocal on what we do and how we do it and that in itself makes it hard for a community that likes to be low key and secretive in its nature to understand and trust.
ATB
David
foxdropper
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply mate .I havnt written it off totally and may even do the dsc1 to tow the line up North .I honestly think you can’t sell it any fairer than you do and the fact you are full up says it all to me .Im actually kicking myself I didn’t take the offer but there tis .Ive plenty of other stalking just not reds .
Maybe next year if there’s a place and I’ll be sure to put the record straight on here as I’m not one for bull**** .
Maybe next year if there’s a place and I’ll be sure to put the record straight on here as I’m not one for bull**** .
We always get one or two places come available from time to time mate as well as new blocks coming up
Tom D
Well-Known Member
I've never paid for stalking but I wouldn't rule it out. I have a couple of farms where I go, about 2000 acres in all, roe ground. I am also currently managing roe on a 300ish acre forestry block for a factoring company. I would pay for some red stalking if i could keep the carcasses.
I think the Scottish deer industry is missing a massive trick. Heres why. I have some friends who want to go stalking, one from down south and two from Scandinavia. We're not interested in trophies, we just want some shooting, cull stags, hinds, whatever. Reds, Sika or Fallow, we don't want roe as we all already have roe stalking. We want an american style hunting experience: 4 of us go into the wilderness and stay in a bothy or tent, yurt whatever, we stay for a few days. We scope the ground ourselves, identify what we're going to shoot and where and when, we shoot it, drag it and generally deal with it all ourselves. We sit around a campfire and drink a few beers have a laugh and enjoy being away from the family for a while. Then we go home.
Now each or us would be willing to pay around £250 for this experience, so thats £1k for the estate for just 1 week. I reckon there's a huge market for this type of hunting, I have a friend who was selling 'wilderness hunting experiences' in the highlands recently, he had loads of interest but has now lost that particular bit of ground and had to stop. An estate with a cull of say 50 hinds and 50 stags could theoretically let 20 weeks at 1000 per week to groups of 4 or 5 and make way more than they would from a syndicate. Or by offering the 'traditional highland stalking experience' where they have keepers wages and equipment to pay for. Surely it would be far more cost effective to simply rent out the ground for days or weeks at a time.
We have been asking around to try and find this kind of experience and its surprisingly hard to find. My friends and I find the traditional 'organised fun' type of stalking experience an huge turn off. Don't get me wrong I have huge respect for the highland keepers and yes they will be far better at getting in front of deer than 4 guys who don't know the ground, but for me outsourcing all the skill of the experience to someone else is pointless. I mean with some of these highland stalks the client just pulls the trigger and thats it! For me pulling the trigger is the least fun part of the whole experience. If that was the only stalking available I'd give it up.
So if you have a nice bit of wild ground where people can buy a week and maybe 2 hind tags, or a cull stag tag I think you'll do very well out of it. I'm convinced we're not the only four hunters who would jump at the chance of that kind of hunting.
I think the Scottish deer industry is missing a massive trick. Heres why. I have some friends who want to go stalking, one from down south and two from Scandinavia. We're not interested in trophies, we just want some shooting, cull stags, hinds, whatever. Reds, Sika or Fallow, we don't want roe as we all already have roe stalking. We want an american style hunting experience: 4 of us go into the wilderness and stay in a bothy or tent, yurt whatever, we stay for a few days. We scope the ground ourselves, identify what we're going to shoot and where and when, we shoot it, drag it and generally deal with it all ourselves. We sit around a campfire and drink a few beers have a laugh and enjoy being away from the family for a while. Then we go home.
Now each or us would be willing to pay around £250 for this experience, so thats £1k for the estate for just 1 week. I reckon there's a huge market for this type of hunting, I have a friend who was selling 'wilderness hunting experiences' in the highlands recently, he had loads of interest but has now lost that particular bit of ground and had to stop. An estate with a cull of say 50 hinds and 50 stags could theoretically let 20 weeks at 1000 per week to groups of 4 or 5 and make way more than they would from a syndicate. Or by offering the 'traditional highland stalking experience' where they have keepers wages and equipment to pay for. Surely it would be far more cost effective to simply rent out the ground for days or weeks at a time.
We have been asking around to try and find this kind of experience and its surprisingly hard to find. My friends and I find the traditional 'organised fun' type of stalking experience an huge turn off. Don't get me wrong I have huge respect for the highland keepers and yes they will be far better at getting in front of deer than 4 guys who don't know the ground, but for me outsourcing all the skill of the experience to someone else is pointless. I mean with some of these highland stalks the client just pulls the trigger and thats it! For me pulling the trigger is the least fun part of the whole experience. If that was the only stalking available I'd give it up.
So if you have a nice bit of wild ground where people can buy a week and maybe 2 hind tags, or a cull stag tag I think you'll do very well out of it. I'm convinced we're not the only four hunters who would jump at the chance of that kind of hunting.
paul dillon
Well-Known Member
I'm quite lucky also I have a few farms on that i can stalk for free and have been a member of a syndicate in Scotland decided to give up the place in the syndicate and stay local and just visit a good friend and go stalking with him.
Tulloch I think you have some great offers and wish I lived a little closer to join but a round trip on the weekends is a bit wearing all the best for the future and maybe one day will take you up on a weekend foray
Tulloch I think you have some great offers and wish I lived a little closer to join but a round trip on the weekends is a bit wearing all the best for the future and maybe one day will take you up on a weekend foray
kenbro
Well-Known Member
So, am I understanding this...they’ll pay contractors, but, not allow free stalking?
Ken.
Chasey
Well-Known Member
Yes correct
Because if they allowed free stalking, they would have to manage it and be ultimately responsible for it.
That not only has a cost, but that cost is measured in both time and money. Theres also the liability issue
RE: the wilderness experience, if I were a land owner id never allow that. I just know there'd be idiots who'd leave rubbish around and probably start fires and a few who'd have one to many beers and do something stupid.
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