How should stalkers get paid?

[Sunrise Stalker]

With the introduction of WS1 revenue payments for Countryside Stewardship (England only I think), should stalkers expect to be paid by the landowner if they're working to achieve a target as opposed to paying the landowner for the privilege of doing the odd recreational stalk?
As the payment rate is not insignificant (£105 / Ha) I'd like to know people's thoughts on:
1) How much should the stalker be charging a Ha?
2) How is the payment calculated / evidence collected? (e.g. number of visits per year, cull records / game dealer records / results evidenced in restock or habitat impact surveys)

Thanks,

Alex

 

[DavyG]

I can just imagine the response from some of the landowners where I have shooting permission…
2nd word “off”.
DG

 

[bottletopbill]

Lets hope some of the land owners contact other stalkers.
But for those who do paid stalk's they earn it and they have to pay for items.
And most of them are great in helping other's new to the sport (cheers)

 

[Sunrise Stalker]

I can just imagine the response from some of the landowners where I have shooting permission…
2nd word “off”.
DG

Are they getting paid for deer management and getting you guys to do it? If so, it would only seem fair that the people actually doing the management take a cut of the payments for doing the actual job of managing deer?

 

[bottletopbill]

Every job as a perk so why not stalker's who help us .
OK some have a bad attitude but most are great

 

[slider]

Stalkers wont get paid as long as there are other stalkers prepared to pay to get the stalking.

 

[Sunrise Stalker]

Stalkers wont get paid as long as there are other stalkers prepared to pay to get the stalking.

Perhaps it's in the difference between 'deer stalking' and 'deer management'?

 

[HonestJohn]

Stalkers wont get paid as long as there are other stalkers prepared to pay to get the stalking.

Hence it needs to be a stalking community push

 

[HonestJohn]

Perhaps it's in the difference between 'deer stalking' and 'deer management'?

What is the difference?
Purist vs murderers

 

[slider]

Hence it needs to be a stalking community push

agreed to an extent but we are pushing against an incoming tide of stalker with money to burn

 

[west_meon]

With the introduction of WS1 revenue payments for Countryside Stewardship (England only I think), should stalkers expect to be paid by the landowner if they're working to achieve a target as opposed to paying the landowner for the privilege of doing the odd recreational stalk?
As the payment rate is not insignificant (£105 / Ha) I'd like to know people's thoughts on:
1) How much should the stalker be charging a Ha?
2) How is the payment calculated / evidence collected? (e.g. number of visits per year, cull records / game dealer records / results evidenced in restock or habitat impact surveys)

Thanks,

Alex

The countryside stewardship payment is calculated on the number of hectares entered into the WS1 option. The WD1 option (Woodland creation maintenance payments), also potentially requires deer management although not specifically - only as part of the annual maintenance. WS1 has quite a few requirements so it could also depend who is carrying them out. E.g. who is writing the deer management plan, initial deer impact assessment, etc. Things like deer exclosure plots and high seats are also grant aided so the agreement holder can claim for these (but does have to prove that they have paid for them in full). Full list of requirements below is from the gov.uk website - just put WS1 (or WD1) into the search bar. Records could include stalking diary, cull records, game dealer receipts, photos of culled animals (preferably date and geotagged), basically anything connected, even down to receipts for ammunition purchases.

Requirements​

• In addition to P2015 under WD2 (baseline option), you should use the Deer Management Plan (DMP) Guide to produce a DMP in collaboration and agreement with your local Deer Officer/Woodland Officer and submit it by the end of year 1. Your DMP should show that you have carried out a baseline deer habitat impact and activity assessment to inform your deer management planning. Your DMP will build on the draft plan that you submit with your Initial Application documents
• In year 1 of your Higher Tier Agreement you should commence erecting additional deer monitoring exclosures. The number and location of deer exclosures will be agreed with the Deer Officer or Woodland Officer. Follow the advice and specifications in Forestry Commission operations note 59 to erect monitoring exclosure plots. You must send photographic monitoring evidence of these plots to your local Deer officer/Woodland officer when you erect them in year 1, 3 and 5 of your agreement
• Carry out agreed levels of culling activity (as agreed with Deer Officer/Woodland Officer in your Deer Management Plan). Provide evidence of culling activity and cull returns to the Deer Officer/Woodland Officer annually, following the guidance and template provided at Forestry Commission operations note
• Provide a report to show annual habitat impact assessments following the guidance and templates. This should include a graded (high/medium/low) impact and activity summary and photographic evidence of the survey. You should carry out habitat impact assessments in all significant woodland habitats and structure types of each woodland across the landholding within the agreement as soon as possible in year 1 (to support the DMP) and then in years 3 and 5.

Keeping records​

You must send the following with your application:​

• a draft Deer Management Plan (DMP) - send this with your Initial Application Documents

You must keep the following records and supply them on request:​

• a Forestry Commission approved management plan that justifies the need for this option
• a Deer Management Plan in place by the end of the first year
• monitoring reports for year 1, 3 and 5 of the agreement to confirm progress (for example providing before and after photographs, a record of the number of deer culled, and the results of squirrel monitoring)
• evidence of activities undertaken through monitoring, photography and marking
• any bank statements, receipted invoices, consents, or permissions connected with the work
• records of all management activity on the option area for each parcel, including an operational site assessment (or similar) to show UKFS compliant operational activities

The question of the difference between deer stalking and deer management is that the first is access to a hobby/pastime that you buy from the landowner, and the second is a service that you are providing to the landowner. How the cake gets cut up is down to the individuals involved. Recently I have come across a situation where a landowner has tried to lease out the deer stalking rights, and then demand cull targets and impose restrictions. This has not worked out well for either party for a number of years, with rapid turnover of lease holders. The landowner has finally agreed to try a collaborative approach with the stalkers, so we will see how that works out.

 

[SussexSteve]

Once labour ban game shooting we can expect even more new stalkers with money to burn looking for ground

 

[GlennUK]

Once labour ban game shooting we can expect even more new stalkers with money to burn looking for ground

Possibly, although I know someone actively managing c.40k acres IIRC and they are selective about the stalkers they use since they are providing a service which requires commitments from both the managers and the stalkers for the management of the deer to be effective.

 

[griff]

Be careful what you wish for, under the stewardship scheme where a contract would be required to manage deer, the stalker /manager will be liable for any damages caused by deer..
So in other words if you take payment to manage deer " a service" then you will also be accountable/liable.

 

[HonestJohn]

Be careful what you wish for, under the stewardship scheme where a contract would be required to manage deer, the stalker /manager will be liable for any damages caused by deer..
So in other words if you take payment to manage deer " a service" then you will also be accountable/liable.

So wrongly accused of letting deer kill off 500 new trees, deer manager coughs up for new trees and replanting services, or goes to court?

Whole thing sounds like a PITA - only a fool would bother

 

[shortshot]

£100 bounty /deer killed. Then landowner sees results rather than assurances.

 

[slider]

Was speaking to a NatureScot guy at the Scottish Game Fair last week and was told there is talk of introducing a top up "bounty" on each female cull in particular high density areas.

 

[Sunrise Stalker]

What is the difference?
Purist vs murderers

In my mind, a stalker is at the minimum just whacking over the odd deer, whereas a manager would be carrying out habitat impact assessments, writing deer mgmt plans, coordinating the stalking effort etc.

 

[Klenchblaize]

K

 

[David Barker]

Was speaking to a NatureScot guy at the Scottish Game Fair last week and was told there is talk of introducing a top up "bounty" on each female cull in particular high density areas.

This is in an existing pilot area. NS have a pilot running from Flanders moss (Stirling) to Bearsden (North Glasgow ) If you are with in that area managing deer you will get a headich payment for each female above the national average. I have been told the average is 3 deer per rec stalker. So after that you get paid. Not sure how much but there has been talk of £50 -£70. Not sure if you keep the deer or hand in to game dealer. The details will be rolled out in mid August and i am told they intend to start this around the 1st of oct this year. My feeling are this will work as i suggested this many years ago to increase culls on the low ground.