Deer A God Like Species??

[Salmo Salar]

To quote Bambislayer from another post I thought I'd start this one..... I've got the bunker ready ....!

""I have just been up in Glenfeshie today and was heartened and amazed to see the regeneration in the Glen due to the lower deer levels [I also saw deer]. I love deer and stalking but maybe some us should look outside the stalking/deer is a god box and look at the whole picture[environmental] and I'm afraid munties et al have no place in it.

Reducing deer levels using lights or out of season is not disrespectful , idolising them to a god like status and paying no head to the rest of their environment is."

Not sure who has been idolising deer to god like status but I'd like to offer another perspective.
I dont know Bambislayer although his addy is in the village next too mine. I think in the past he has been part of contract killing squads for deer control. Perhaps he leans more to one side than another, and I know also from reading his posts on here he a very knowledgeable lad with regards to Deer.
My beef to this quote is and always will be this.

When an estate/landowner decides it would like to have some sort of regen policy started it should not then be a given that the deer be treated as vermin as they currently are. Like it or not they were here when the country was covered in trees as many would have us believe it once was. They are part of our heritage. They do have a part to play in our countryside and tourism. And amazingly some people actually like the way our countryside looks as it is now. This also goes for some estates that have wiped out their deer populations in order for Grouse to re populate. So this is not an anti tree hugger post.
I think the numbers some people say that deer should be reduced to per acre are far too low for a start. Also prior to having to wipe out virtually an entire deer population in an area then fencing should be prioritised first and foremost.
I am not saying certain areas were not carrying too many deer, some were. Culls were needed and on the whole have been done. But the slaughter that has happened and continues to on some estates is nothing short of barbaric, Glenfeshie being one. Saying this does not in my mind mean I am idolising deer to a god like status. Its merely stating a fact that some people have a different view to wholesale slaughter for the sake of tree's or anything else.

Now before anyone gets on their high horse, I am not deriding Bambislayer for his views, he has a right to believe them, all I am saying is that if you perhaps dont agree with them then trying to ridicule folk for having a different view isnt right. I dont agree with his view and he probably wont agree with mine, but i wont make fun of his view.(As for the munties keep them out)

I'll start ducking now!

 

[mick b]

INCOMING...............................

 

[jimbo123p]

I have nothing against regen. However the tree is king and must be protected. Little consideration was given when vast tracts of deer migration routes were fenced of an we had to dig trenches to bury the deer trapped as they moved down the side of Ben Cruachan. All that was required was a track a hundred yards wide to let the deer through Glen Noe. FC have been at war with deer since it was founded. An area on Glen Etive frquently had the deer fence laid over and Deer in the Dahl Forestry. The ranger turned up mob handed and shot them. We repaired the fence. Strangely it stopped suddenly when I caught and reported a ranger poachingon the estate. The laird said "He won't be back." Fencing used correctly could have saved many deer. SNH and FC are still showing contempt for deer and calling them vermin. The reasoning seems to be find the excuse to wipe them out. Cull plans should incluse numbers and quality to be left.
Jim

 

[bambislayer]

I'm just going out to burn some heather, but will respond later Salmo

 

[bambislayer]

My main gripe is the term "vermin", when shooting deer, I d treat them like,foxes or rabbits ie I try and kill them cleanly and efficiently. The god like status I was referring to was that deer must only be shot in season [man made] and in daylight but fox and co can be shot all year round whenever we want and with whatever we want to use.

I'm not advocating all out war on deer but what would the SGA etc say about close seasons or "vermin", maybe we should be paying more respect to them.

ps

heather is nice and dry but nae wind

 

[6pointer]

Seasons to me are very important and i believe all wild life should be free from total persecution (excluding vermin). Were we are most lads will not even shoot foxes unless asked to do so by a landowner who are loosing lambs. To me a male and female season is really important for many reasons and the welfare of the animals we stalk rely on us. (man made ) to make the right decision. I am not saying the current seasons are the right ones but that is not my call.

 

[bambislayer]

Why is it when Glen Feshie and other schemes are reffered to the word "slaughter" is used?

The deer shot in these culls were treated and killed in a manner identical to any other culled deer, infact possibly better than most "new/unexperienced Client " shot beasts as they were killed by extremely experienced stalkers. There were as many Estate stalkers as contractors at Glen Feshie yet the contractors get the flack. In DCS/SNH literature the picture used where stalkers are emerging from a chopper are actually Balmoral keepers [the late Ben Fernie] yet contractors will be blamed.

I's not about the trees it's about the natural environment and the trees just happen to be the most visable component.

Rather than me trying to explain my thoughts I'll paste a quote from Aldo Leopold whos ideas are the bedrock to many hunting management programmes. After reading his work my attitude towards deer management certainly changed and deer management in my eyes is not just about deer .

"We reached the old wolf in time to watch a fierce green fire dying in her eyes. I realized then, and have known ever since, that there was something new to me in those eyes - something known only to her and to the mountain. I was young then, and full of trigger-itch; I thought that because fewer wolves meant more deer, that no wolves would mean hunters' paradise. But after seeing the green fire die, I sensed that neither the wolf nor the mountain agreed with such a view.

Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain, and seen the south-facing slopes wrinkle with a maze of new deer trails. I have seen every edible bush and seedling browsed, first to anaemic desuetude, and then to death. I have seen every edible tree defoliated to the height of a saddlehorn. Such a mountain looks as if someone had given God a new pruning shears, and forbidden Him all other exercise. In the end the starved bones of the hoped-for deer herd, dead of its own too-much, bleach with the bones of the dead sage, or molder under the high-lined junipers.

I now suspect that just as a deer herd lives in mortal fear of its wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of its deer. And perhaps with better cause, for while a buck pulled down by wolves can be replaced in two or three years, a range pulled down by too many deer may fail of replacement in as many decades. So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf's job of trimming the herd to fit the range. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea.

We all strive for safety, prosperity, comfort, long life, and dullness. The deer strives with his supple legs, the cowman with trap and poison, the statesman with pen, the most of us with machines, votes, and dollars, but it all comes to the same thing: peace in our time. A measure of success in this is all well enough, and perhaps is a requisite to objective thinking, but too much safety seems to yield only danger in the long run. Perhaps this is behind Thoreau's dictum: In wildness is the salvation of the world. Perhaps this is the hidden meaning in the howl of the wolf, long known among mountains, but seldom perceived among men."

I'm no saying we should return wolves as we have enough trouble trying to take care of grey squirrels!!!!!!

 

[bambislayer]

If anyone is interested

The Aldo Leopold Foundation

Aldo Leopold - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I dont normally go with wiki but this is quite a good one

[face book ruins degrees - Wikipedia saves them]

 

[6pointer]

Most times Bambi the pound is king and when you try and do two years worth of deer management in a couple of weeks then somthings got to give. Safe shots rushed shots meat hygene compromised dependants left with no chance of recover because of the type of shooting. Like has been said before by many contractors the quick fix dose not normally work.

There were plenty to blame for the mistakes made and quick cash in my opinion has no place in the managment of deer. (BONUS HAS CAUSED HAVOCK IN EVERY WALK OF LIFE )

 

[bambislayer]

Most times Bambi the pound is king and when you try and do two years worth of deer management in a couple of weeks then somthings got to give. Safe shots rushed shots meat hygene compromised dependants left with no chance of recover because of the type of shooting. Like has been said before by many contractors the quick fix dose not normally work.

There were plenty to blame for the mistakes made and quick cash in my opinion has no place in the managment of deer. (BONUS HAS CAUSED HAVOCK IN EVERY WALK OF LIFE )

If that is the case then don't hire them, the above picture looks like an old style fc larder therefore I would say an old one, but I wont defend the undefendable.
Just because you are shooting more than the average stalker does not mean standards should drop, that is why you are getting paid[in fact you should be better].
How many keepers shove game in a game bag or hamper or even carcasses that have been in dogs mouths????
I'm not going to have a p****** contest with anyone but I can tell you in the past I would larder a beast in half the time most others would but still produce a good product for the game dealer, this is not because of any inherant skill but time, and more so practise will allow you these skills [ie 20 deer at 3am n the morning and you've been up since 6am], also if you are paying for your own time and ammo [especially at the current prices] you will not take unnesesary shots or take ill aimed ones. personally I don't do this anymore, basically because I want to spend time with my family and flying a desk is an easier way to make a pound but I wouldn't put anyone else of it or do I regret it. Remember most of my career has been spent as a traditional stalker, pony and all.

Whether a deer waits 2 or 5 years to be shot is purely academic also meat production is a by product of deer culling, as long as the death is quick and clean , the meat quality is secondary as long as poor quality stuff doesn't go into the food chain.

Large scale culling has always taken place [victorian deer drives??] but has only become common knowledge in the last 10years or so, standards have become 100x better than what was practised before I assure you.

The pound rules, grant aid has time restraints and therefore operations have to be done in a certain time frame , that is the way of the world, therefore we have to work within it. Surely it is better to do it as cleanly and effectively as possible, if that includes a chopper then fine, wonder how our victorian fore fathers would view a moderator, scope or argo????
Look at the uproar caused when the forum masses herd of JMT leaving carcasses in Gen Nevis!!!!
Did I not hear folk shout about choppers???????

 

[The Ghillie]

If that is the case then don't hire them, the above picture looks like an old style fc larder therefore I would say an old one, but I wont defend the undefendable.
Just because you are shooting more than the average stalker does not mean standards should drop, that is why you are getting paid[in fact you should be better].
How many keepers shove game in a game bag or hamper or even carcasses that have been in dogs mouths????
I'm not going to have a p****** contest with anyone but I can tell you in the past I would larder a beast in half the time most others would but still produce a good product for the game dealer, this is not because of any inherant skill but time, and more so practise will allow you these skills [ie 20 deer at 3am n the morning and you've been up since 6am], also if you are paying for your own time and ammo [especially at the current prices] you will not take unnesesary shots or take ill aimed ones. personally I don't do this anymore, basically because I want to spend time with my family and flying a desk is an easier way to make a pound but I wouldn't put anyone else of it or do I regret it. Remember most of my career has been spent as a traditional stalker, pony and all.

Whether a deer waits 2 or 5 years to be shot is purely academic also meat production is a by product of deer culling, as long as the death is quick and clean , the meat quality is secondary as long as poor quality stuff doesn't go into the food chain.

Large scale culling has always taken place [victorian deer drives??] but has only become common knowledge in the last 10years or so, standards have become 100x better than what was practised before I assure you.

The pound rules, grant aid has time restraints and therefore operations have to be done in a certain time frame , that is the way of the world, therefore we have to work within it. Surely it is better to do it as cleanly and effectively as possible, if that includes a chopper then fine, wonder how our victorian fore fathers would view a moderator, scope or argo????
Look at the uproar caused when the forum masses herd of JMT leaving carcasses in Gen Nevis!!!!
Did I not hear folk shout about choppers???????

Nailed it bud!

 

[6pointer]

Just for you info the picture is 6 years old or there abouts.

The cost of the coptors made then a machine of fun and i am told that SNH have decided not to use them any more. I do agree about an age to die but i feel that quality and deer selection are all important to the welbeing of the deer. Mass culls cannot diliver such selections.
JMO. nature has a survival of the fittest aproach so the best animals breed. So while age is irrelivant i believe quality is.

 

[bambislayer]

Just for you info the picture is 6 years old or there abouts.

The cost of the coptors made then a machine of fun and i am told that SNH have decided not to use them any more. I do agree about an age to die but i feel that quality and deer selection are all important to the welbeing of the deer. Mass culls cannot diliver such selections.
JMO. nature has a survival of the fittest aproach so the best animals breed. So while age is irrelivant i believe quality is.

I have a feeling that these photo's are from Aberfoyle going by back ground etc, and are actually a bit older, say circa 2000/2001???

If faced with a quick fix, ie reduce numbers fast , then there is no time for age selection although the animals who stand or hesitate will get shot first, is this not the animals that the wolf would take? When taking a first stand gets shot cull [Guiness etal 1989, Rhum] will give you an even age class cull. I was involved in shooting on Rhum in the late 80's early 90's and we puposefully shot the first to stand and ignored dependants, Fiona Guiness took samples from all deer shot and we found that we actually [on paper] took a far more cross sectional cull. However it was agreed on welfare grounds that we would go back to a dependant weighted cull when shooting hinds and calves.

Once the target density has been reached then the age selection process can start. We all know it is a hell of a lot harder to pick poor animals out of a healthy herd.

 

[Salmo Salar]

Here we go….

Your gripe re the classification of vermin I’d challenge. I think in general vermin were the animals that we couldn’t generally eat but in some way or another killed/ate what we regarded as food. Deer only very recently have been classed as vermin due to the conflicts with tree regeneration on the whole but more recently on estates looking to improve Grouse numbers. I still class them as game. I will agree with you that even when shooting “vermin” that they should be killed cleanly and efficiently. The rules regarding seasons for shooting them were different due to the fact they were not in the food chain but were affecting it.
Glad to hear you had a good day for the burning, you get a better burn with no wind!
As for saying the deer shot were treated in a manner identical to any other culled deer I will disagree. Yes they were shot and we will assume that all the shots were clean shots, but the amount of shots raining down on these animals that have driven into a killing zone is certainly not identical. And yes I know not all the deer were shot in this manner but a good number were. The term contractors that is used does not diminish the skill that the practitioners have in carrying out there duties, nor does the fact they are/were “keepers/stalkers” from other estates detract they are contractors brought in for the job at hand. I don’t dispute that the people involved were experienced only they were contracted in by whatever arrangements in place at the time.
You say it’s not about the trees but the wider environment, perhaps this is true in some cases but in some there are other agendas. The fact the trees are the most visible component does not mean that they should rule the roost over everything else as some folk would have us believe, this goes for the estates wiping out their deer for the so called sake of increasing Grouse numbers. Balance is the watchword that has sadly been completely forgotten about. Your quote from Aldo Leopold may sound a bit dramatic and there may be some truth there but it is I’d say giving exaggerated view in something’s. I too don’t want to see the return of the wolf though!
As for the pictures posted showing some ill advised posing and game handling then I think we both agree that is wrong. I won’t dwell on that. The so called halcyon days of the Victorian era are in the past and some of the things they did I would class in the same bracket of slaughter that’s we’re now speaking about. The fact it was done then, when it was considered a normal practice does not mean I would condone it now. Our standards on the whole have improved and the welfare of animals has improved. We should continue to improve where we can.
For some the pound does certainly rule. And as you say there are timeframes imposed on certain grants being accepted. This does not get away from the fact that the first thing that should be done is fencing. Whatever the reason for reducing deer numbers, be it regen, grouse or anything else then fencing should be the first thing that happens. There after the culls can be done in a more controlled fashion, which would in itself, be far less likely to receive the bad press. The ground these estates/owners are trying to change hasn’t overnight got to this so called, overstocked with deer stage. It has taken a long number of years. To then come in heavy handed to slaughter in the manner that has happened so quickly will always get the bad press and show up the more sordid side of some of our land owners.

 

[centralbeltstalker]

Any animal with a £ on its hind is done for.
I wonder if attitudes would change if you could not sell them.
All animals should be treated with respect regardless of vermin or not.
I have and still am a big follower of understand not destroy.
Brown its down is not the answer to every question.....

As for been a God like species, well you sit in a high seat for hours and watch a deer appear from no where despite watching the spot all day, Yes they can be.

Discussing past methods if fine only if you learn from them.
As jim said erecting fences work and works well if you allow movement.
dont cage a wild animal, it will and has starved to death because of such mistakes.

Learn, Learn, Learn.

 

[6pointer]

Bambislayer you are correct it was 9-10 years ago christ how time fly,s and i am sure that the lessons learned from this have been put in to practice.

 

[roebuck220]

If you happen to live in the Cairngorm national park and want to fence your ground, then good luck to you. Four years and counting and still not a post in the ground!!!

 

[bambislayer]

Bambislayer you are correct it was 9-10 years ago christ how time fly,s and i am sure that the lessons learned from this have been put in to practice.

I wasn't involved in any of the work at Aberfoyle, but I do know some if the people involved and have heard plenty tails. It was not a good example and some people used it to climb the ladder [deer commissioner!!!!!].

If you are faced with a bill to reduce deer numbers, how do you do it?
Picking away a little bit every year wont get results and 2 or 3 hinds a day wont even pay for the petrol, unsavoury as it is, going in hard and taking out the bulk of the cull quickly and efficiently is the only way, not only financially but also for the deer.

Salmo, you may think the "Leopold" quote is a bit flowery, but it directly applies to Scotland.

All of our conservation/environmental legislation derives from EU rulings which in turn come from the Rio Convention.
How can we as a "civilised" country tell 3rd world countries to cease deforestation when we have only half the European average and only 2% is native!!!!!
We look at our open expanses of treeless farmland with wonder and glee and somehow have delded our selfs that it is the way god intended it to be, but dictate that the Amazon must be protected from beef farmers & loggers. it is fine for us to have pillaged and raped our countryside over the last 1000years to become an affluent society, but it is wrong for Brazilian Indians to aspire to what we have and they must protect their environment.
It is not wrong for us to correct some of our past discrepancies. Deer will not be wiped out but maybe we should just accept that things change, fewer trophy stags, but charge more?

 

[6pointer]

Bambislayer can you tell me how many landowners have been taken to court and made pay for reducing numbers of deer ?. I think sometimes the reduction of red deer was the prefared option because it met with the playing fields of the Deer sector call me synical if you like but if you look at costs against effectivness you will see a furcking big hole in the fianances of public sector (TAX PAYER).

jmho and my last post on this because it gets on my tit,s

 

[Salmo Salar]

Where has there been a bill that has said you have to reduce numbers that there couldn’t have been a fence erected to keep them out of the specific area?
I have not a clue about European or World conservation or environmental rules and from what I have seen there cant be many that we adhere to looking at how we have been going about things here. I am not going to comment on what happens in the Rain forests of Brazil or anywhere else for that matter as things are complicated enough here. As for our tree cover as country compared with other European countries, its not hard to understand why we have a lot less, its because we emerged as an industrial nation prior to many of our European cousins and therefore used our resources to what at the time was to better/increase our range over the world. Rightly or wrongly. We are also one of the smaller countries in Europe. I think the world has changed dramatically over the last 100 years so to compare what we did then to what’s happening now is not correct. I doubt our natural forests we had if still here now would be raped and pillaged as we once did before. No, we have what we have.
We now have a burgeoning population that we struggle to provide for which will only get worse. From 1700 – 1850 population 21m, 1850 – 1910 population 37m, 2011 – population 61m. We have a large group within our ruling system that wish to see the countryside as it was 300yrs ago. This simply can’t happen but because regen and environmental carbon capture schemes etc are in vogue now their voices are heard above others. This then leads to the easy target – Lets get rid of the deer. Which is happening now to such an extent it’s similar to when we removed the trees as they needed to be at the time. Ie. These people are telling us now we need to do this. We don’t.
As I have said numerous times, I am not against regeneration. But we can do it without having to wipe out populations of deer. We can fence and we can then reduce populations to a workable level there after. The deer in the fence can be driven out prior to its closure. This is possible. So, we can have tree’s, we can have deer number reductions and we can have no mass slaughters. As you know only too well you don’t require many folk lined up over a hillside to move deer in one way or another, if your aim is to have zero deer within a certain area. I am simply against estates/landowners who ever they may be, wiping out populations for the sake of one thing. They all have a right to be there. Reducing numbers is one thing slaughter is another.
I think my last paragraph sums up my position here. Not everyone will agree with it and thats fine, but I dont think its too far off the mark.

Roebuck 220, I have seen a few fences being erected within the CNP in the last few years so not sure where your coming from.