Howa mini vs short action .223

My 223 shoots 62 grainers very snugly indeed for what it is worth.

David.
Thanks.
My existing .223, which is 1:10 shoots 68 gr quite well & is slightly better with 60gr.

Personally, I wouldn't be too bothered by the 1:9 as opposed to the 1:8 as I don't envisage using heavier than 68 gr.
However, as far as the Tikka is concerned, I'd opt for the 1:8 rather than the 1:12 option.
The comment in my previous post was misleading.

v
 
Yes, they're different sizes. The Mini's bolt is nearly an inch shorter than the standard short-action 1500 and is smaller diameter, the receiver dimensions reflecting these differences. The 'Mini' also uses a different magazine, a specific polymer model for this action and so far no aftermarket alternatives AFAIK.

As you say, there are far fewer replacement stocks as yet. The MDT Oryx chassis is the best known and most widely available. From what I've seen on the 6.5 Grendel Forum which has a great deal of material on it about this rifle and its Cz527 competitor, there is a problem here centering on the magazine. Stocks like GRS replacements need very consistent magazine dimensions to fit in the stock neatly and properly positioned in order to function reliably and the Howa Mini mag is allegedly deficient here. So GRS, Bell & Carlsson or anybody else making a stock inlet it for a sample magazine, but then a percentage of customers complain that their rifles won't feed or the magazine won't lock in. B&C allegedly made a prototype or two but won't put it into production until the mag issue is sorted.

Again allegedly, LSI, Howa's western importer has been deluged with requests to pressure Howa to design and make a good quality metal magazine, in effect a downsized AI type, or at the very least make the polymer models more consistent. So far no progress on this last time I looked. As the Mini is selling very well, maybe somebody else will sort this if the Japanese won't - some people hope MDT will. (This doesn't seem to be an issue with Howa's plastic stocks or the MDT Oryx.)

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/

and look in the section on bolt rifles.

Jefferson Outdoor Howa Mini Flush Bottom Metal — Jefferson Outdoor have come out with a flush fit internal box mag, capacity is obviously quite limited but it looks good. Seems to be popular too.

Looked long and hard at the Howa's (mini and SA) as I'm planning on getting a .223, asked a lot of people for opinions but none came back glowing.

The action features are pretty outdated, its been made in one form or the other since the late 70's, front action screw right through the recoil/bedding block, flat bottom action, high bolt lift and lack of integral optics mounting solutions make it less than ideal. They are cheap in the USA and available with a wide range of chamberings, which is probably their strongest point.

Despite the long action length I think I will be picking a T3x 1:8 up if I can find one, the round bottom action, lower two lug bolt lift and integral rail and wider range of parts make it a better choice.
 
Thanks.
My existing .223, which is 1:10 shoots 68 gr quite well & is slightly better with 60gr.

Personally, I wouldn't be too bothered by the 1:9 as opposed to the 1:8 as I don't envisage using heavier than 68 gr.
However, as far as the Tikka is concerned, I'd opt for the 1:8 rather than the 1:12 option.
The comment in my previous post was misleading.

v
Fortunately I am easily misled! :)

David.
 
Jefferson Outdoor Howa Mini Flush Bottom Metal — Jefferson Outdoor have come out with a flush fit internal box mag, capacity is obviously quite limited but it looks good. Seems to be popular too.

Looked long and hard at the Howa's (mini and SA) as I'm planning on getting a .223, asked a lot of people for opinions but none came back glowing.

The action features are pretty outdated, its been made in one form or the other since the late 70's, front action screw right through the recoil/bedding block, flat bottom action, high bolt lift and lack of integral optics mounting solutions make it less than ideal. They are cheap in the USA and available with a wide range of chamberings, which is probably their strongest point.

Despite the long action length I think I will be picking a T3x 1:8 up if I can find one, the round bottom action, lower two lug bolt lift and integral rail and wider range of parts make it a better choice.


I guess there has to be a reason they're good value. Once you start kitting one out at the spec you want it appears less of a bargain - so something like a varmint in a laminate or Beserk stock seems to be £850-900, whereas a T3X Varmint is around £1k. I was kind of hoping there would be a cheap option but I guess you get what you pay for! Or you buy used...

Not to deliberately open another can of worms, but does a heavy barrel make much difference in .223? I know sporters can be just as accurate but the skinny barrel on my .243 only takes a few shots before it's hot. You're burning less powder with the smaller cartridge, so does that alter anything? I think I actually want the weight but I guess it opens up other options if there's not much in it.
 
I guess there has to be a reason they're good value. Once you start kitting one out at the spec you want it appears less of a bargain - so something like a varmint in a laminate or Beserk stock seems to be £850-900, whereas a T3X Varmint is around £1k. I was kind of hoping there would be a cheap option but I guess you get what you pay for! Or you buy used...

Not to deliberately open another can of worms, but does a heavy barrel make much difference in .223? I know sporters can be just as accurate but the skinny barrel on my .243 only takes a few shots before it's hot. You're burning less powder with the smaller cartridge, so does that alter anything? I think I actually want the weight but I guess it opens up other options if there's not much in it.

@ejg mentioned that his .223 sporter did just fine, not sure how many rounds you are planning on shooting through it? The first shot should be dead on from a cold bore, follow up shots are sometimes needed when culling hinds and calves but not very often otherwise.

I looked at GRS stocks when researching options for my Tikka, having handled one I would not go near them. Laminates are heavy, and the chasis models even more so. The need to pillar and glass bed the plastic/fibreglass and laminate ones put me off completely.
 
@ejg mentioned that his .223 sporter did just fine, not sure how many rounds you are planning on shooting through it? The first shot should be dead on from a cold bore, follow up shots are sometimes needed when culling hinds and calves but not very often otherwise.

I looked at GRS stocks when researching options for my Tikka, having handled one I would not go near them. Laminates are heavy, and the chasis models even more so. The need to pillar and glass bed the plastic/fibreglass and laminate ones put me off completely.
You might as well bed the standard stock (if it doesn't shoot well, which it probably will, I use a standard stock on mine) and it will cost a lot less than a new stock. Scrumbag has a 527 with a sporter barrel and he points it at stuff and it falls over. I suppose it depends on your rate of fire and number of cartridges fired. Mine has a varmint barrel and seems fine. I got it second hand so the choices were limited. It doesn't seem too heavy to carry about and I am far from the first flush of youth.

David.
 
@ejg mentioned that his .223 sporter did just fine, not sure how many rounds you are planning on shooting through it? The first shot should be dead on from a cold bore, follow up shots are sometimes needed when culling hinds and calves but not very often otherwise.

I looked at GRS stocks when researching options for my Tikka, having handled one I would not go near them. Laminates are heavy, and the chasis models even more so. The need to pillar and glass bed the plastic/fibreglass and laminate ones put me off completely.

I don't envisage taking up target shooting properly but I would like to play at it - I can safely shoot to over 300m on one permission. Not fussed by the weight really. I am assuming you have said this on another thread, but what have you concluded beyond the T3X with a 1:8? Is the Tikka stock not up to it as is?
 
I don't envisage taking up target shooting properly but I would like to play at it - I can safely shoot to over 300m on one permission. Not fussed by the weight really. I am assuming you have said this on another thread, but what have you concluded beyond the T3X with a 1:8? Is the Tikka stock not up to it as is?

'Problems' with the T3x Tikka stock come down to the fact that it is a 'budget' rifle and they have to save money somewhere.

1- 'Bottom metal' of the non-CTR versions is plastic, this is fine with the standard plastic stock but if you are changing the stock to a stiffer composite one then I would highly recommend it be changed. The CTR bottom metal is just fine, I have one and use MDT plastic mags with it (arguably better than the CTR mags, lighter, cheaper, single feed). Some reports of extreme setups with very heavy barrels which retained the plastic mag but changed stock (to accommodate the barrel) have noted that the whole action assembly wobbled, so the plastic 'bottom metal' was binned in favour of an AICS system (in-letting for one is another added cost, some chasis systems will accept AICS mags and eliminate the need for a 'bottom metal' entirely).

2. Relating to the above point, T3x models that use the standard and CTR mag systems are all the same length, so you can put a CTR bottom metal onto a standard T3x no bother (apparently there is a difference between the old T3's, the CTR version's mag well was cut differently). However, the standard mag system uses magazines that are all the same length, whatever the chambering. A magazine designed to take a 'long action' cartridge (.270, 30-06) is adapted to take a 'short action' length cartridge (.308, .223) with an internal plastic spacer. Some have modified the 'short action' mags to take advantage of the actual dimensions of the magazine and receiver, but you will still have the disadvantages from point 1. The standard mags themselves are actually a good design, very light and reliable. I have kept them them for my 'long action' setup but opted for a 7075 aluminum bottom metal that accepts them (from UK Gunworks).

3- Stock, one size fits none is the term that comes to mind. Very seldom will you find a factory stock with 'cast-off' (or cast-on), Monte Carlo style combs or adjustable length of pull. I think you can adjust the length of pull on a new T3x stock, and some of the CTR/Varmint models come with an adjustable cheek riser. I think the recoil lug in the T3x is now steel (old ones were aluminium), but they are still slid into the plastic stock and not permanently retained through bedding compound. Another point is that shooting off a bipod does require a reasonably stiff fore-end which is wide enough to distribute/dissipate the forces encountered before and after the shot, as well as attach the bipod in a secure manner (sling stud attachments are not a good solution, properly integrated picatinny rails are a good compromise) A good aftermarket stock eliminates these disadvantages and adds features to improve handling, reduce recoil and provide a better fit.

The standard stocks on Tikka's are very far from being bad, they are miles ahead of what you will see on the average 'budget' American-made rifle, its just down to picky people like myself who don't mind paying extra to eliminate the economised parts. Sometimes you will notice the difference, most often not. If improperly installed, performance may even be worse than the original components.

Tikka T3x strong points,

1- Great action, especially in stainless.

2- Nice adjustable trigger from the factory

3- Factory barrels usually good, but some enthusiasts replace them before the first shot is fired, a real waste!
 
I'm probably being stupid here but I can't work it out - is the stock inletting for these actions different? I think the answer is yes and, if that's the case, it looks as though you are limited in stock options (at least in the standard packages they offer). Does that sound right? So no mini action in a GRS etc?

Also, looking at the other .223 barrelled actions on Highland Outdoors, it seems to suggest the 20" blued short action varmint is a 1:9 twist (like the mini action), while the 24" blued short action varmint is 1:8. Having seen older spec sheets, it looks like these twist rates may have got quicker some time recently(ish).

It has been a long week and I hate numbers at the best of times. I'm assuming there isn't much in 1:8 against 1:9 but is there any advantage to the mini beyond aesthetics?
I think the Howa mini barrelled action might be a fixed barrel , so you can't re-barrel once its ready for another barrel
 
I purchased a .222 mini action a few years ago without realising it was a mini (I assumed it was a short). The supplied synthetic houge stock was dreadful and pressed against the barrel causing poor groups. I wasn’t best pleased, especially since at the time there were next to no options for a replacement stock.

It sat unused and then a year ago I discovered the southern cross chassis quite by accident. I’m not really a fan of chassis systems, but thought it would be preferable to gathering dust. The reason I liked the rifle was the smaller proportions and thought it would make a great foxing tool, so a workmanlike chassis might just work?

It is now a very competent, almost recoiless tack driver. With the added benefit of a folding stock that allows unhindered close range work from a jimmy window.

I had it painted to dull down the tactical look, and think it is absolute mustard as a practical option. I even have a picatiny rail on the forend for a lamp IMG_0806.webp
 
Well, this is a blast from the past - just four years since!

Still, hopefully some useful info for someone...
 
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