Varies depending on seller in Germany
Approx 30% at best
Approx 30% at best
Import from Germany
- Thread starter bowji john
- Start date
Is there really that much saving to be had ? have all the costs and the time been taken into consideration ? what is being imported here ?
Durkee Atwood
Member
I am in the midst of doing this very thing. There are pros and cons of purchasing from Germany. The pros are that you will save money. A £3000 rifle here will be around €3000. VAT is 18% instead of 20% and with the free trade between member states you don't pay any more than 18%. Of course that will all stop when we officially leave (thanks Brexiters) Shipping might be as much as €130 and it has to be done by a specialist courier.
The German's (bless them) invented bureaucracy so it comes second nature to them. So bearing that in mind they do not understand why anyone doesn't understand the need to do things by the book. That's all very well and good, but they take it that everyone knows about the bureaucracy involved. They have lawyers that you can hire by the hour to help you with the bureaucracy if you lived there. So with this in mind you must understand that if you do not send them what they require, they wait patiently until you do. They will wait indefinitely until you write several emails asking for status. You might then get 'we are still waiting for your details' to which you answer 'I sent my details three weeks ago attached to an email' You must always follow up the email as you will get no reply. When you politely contact them again for clarification you will finally get 'we need your FAC'.
So please bear in mind that you have contacted a local firearms dealer who will be handling the imported rifle on your behalf as this is an EU requirement. He has to send particulars of his Firearms Dealer Licence to the German seller via email. You fondly imagine that as a dealer who will be making a handling charge will be the one who requires your FAC. He may well do. But we are in Belt and Braces land now and the seller needs to see your FAC and who may or may not be entering the firearm and its serial number in the vacant slot. However, this bit of information is worryingly left out of any communication on a possible 'need to know basis.'
You zee, the problem viz you Britishers ist dat you don't gghreally unterstant bureaucrazy like vie do, so vie try not to confuze de issue by explanazion. Vie kno vot vie do und vie do vot vie kno.
To cut a long Germanic fairy tale short. I sent the FAC (I was tempted then) document via recorded airmail. I followed up with 'is this all you need to complete the order?' and stupidly I asked if they will be sending my FAC back to me or will it accompany the firearm' the latter to me was ludicrous, but I had to ask. I have not had an answer to either question as I am beneath the 'need to know' of this particular bureaucracy.
The firearms dealer that will be receiving the rifle from the specialist couriers is standing and waiting for delivery...he blinks now and then and occasionally looks out the door, just in case.
I stand near the telephone and wait for the phonecall from the firearms dealer...I blink now and then and often look out my front door just in case it comes directly to me. Who knows, it just might?
It is highly likely that the German Kaufman (seller) is still waiting for something we haven't given him. Of course he blinks and of course knows that Britishers are so slow at doing things, that we make doing business a terrible waste of time, always.
I am not sure if there is a moral to this story. I do feel however that one should ask all the necessary questions before any money has exchanged hands. The Germans are very efficient at the point of sale, even to the point of a faint clicking of the heels in the background. So it is at this point we should take advantage of any two way conversation and ask quite clearly what do you require from me. When they reply 'a copy of you FAC' they really mean the actual document.
I will let you know what the outcome of it all is in the next episode.
Beste Grüße
Dirk von Atwwood
The German's (bless them) invented bureaucracy so it comes second nature to them. So bearing that in mind they do not understand why anyone doesn't understand the need to do things by the book. That's all very well and good, but they take it that everyone knows about the bureaucracy involved. They have lawyers that you can hire by the hour to help you with the bureaucracy if you lived there. So with this in mind you must understand that if you do not send them what they require, they wait patiently until you do. They will wait indefinitely until you write several emails asking for status. You might then get 'we are still waiting for your details' to which you answer 'I sent my details three weeks ago attached to an email' You must always follow up the email as you will get no reply. When you politely contact them again for clarification you will finally get 'we need your FAC'.
So please bear in mind that you have contacted a local firearms dealer who will be handling the imported rifle on your behalf as this is an EU requirement. He has to send particulars of his Firearms Dealer Licence to the German seller via email. You fondly imagine that as a dealer who will be making a handling charge will be the one who requires your FAC. He may well do. But we are in Belt and Braces land now and the seller needs to see your FAC and who may or may not be entering the firearm and its serial number in the vacant slot. However, this bit of information is worryingly left out of any communication on a possible 'need to know basis.'
You zee, the problem viz you Britishers ist dat you don't gghreally unterstant bureaucrazy like vie do, so vie try not to confuze de issue by explanazion. Vie kno vot vie do und vie do vot vie kno.
To cut a long Germanic fairy tale short. I sent the FAC (I was tempted then) document via recorded airmail. I followed up with 'is this all you need to complete the order?' and stupidly I asked if they will be sending my FAC back to me or will it accompany the firearm' the latter to me was ludicrous, but I had to ask. I have not had an answer to either question as I am beneath the 'need to know' of this particular bureaucracy.
The firearms dealer that will be receiving the rifle from the specialist couriers is standing and waiting for delivery...he blinks now and then and occasionally looks out the door, just in case.
I stand near the telephone and wait for the phonecall from the firearms dealer...I blink now and then and often look out my front door just in case it comes directly to me. Who knows, it just might?
It is highly likely that the German Kaufman (seller) is still waiting for something we haven't given him. Of course he blinks and of course knows that Britishers are so slow at doing things, that we make doing business a terrible waste of time, always.
I am not sure if there is a moral to this story. I do feel however that one should ask all the necessary questions before any money has exchanged hands. The Germans are very efficient at the point of sale, even to the point of a faint clicking of the heels in the background. So it is at this point we should take advantage of any two way conversation and ask quite clearly what do you require from me. When they reply 'a copy of you FAC' they really mean the actual document.
I will let you know what the outcome of it all is in the next episode.
Beste Grüße
Dirk von Atwwood
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
That depends entirely on to what extent the Europeans wish to cut off their noses to spite their faces, but I would guess that when reality strikes on the continent they will realise that freedom to trade with each other is mutually beneficial and that a trade war would be equally destructive to both them and us.
Orion
Well-Known Member
A very lucid tale Herr von Attwood! Let's hope your parcel arrives soon.
Can you clarify why the requirement to involve a UK RFD though?
It's not something that was in the mix when I was setting up a Fatherland to Blighty firearm purchase with a large German retail outfit as they were willing to ship direct to my private address. Or is this something that is required when purchasing from an individual from within the EU?
Can you clarify why the requirement to involve a UK RFD though?
It's not something that was in the mix when I was setting up a Fatherland to Blighty firearm purchase with a large German retail outfit as they were willing to ship direct to my private address. Or is this something that is required when purchasing from an individual from within the EU?
Durkee Atwood
Member
With 20/20 hindsight I think that would have been the best solution. If flying, I would have to find an airline willing to take firearms (many don't). The same applies to the channel tunnel (they expect everyone to declare firearms on entry to the UK). As law abiding citizens we might just comply. Do they know the law or is that going to be a ball ache? If travelling by ferry, they have strict rules on what can be taken on board. Every gun owner knows that they are obliged to keep their firearm in sight at all times and leaving it locked in a unattended vehicle is contrary to that advice. Bringing a weapon into the country without declaration is smuggling and even if it is above board (legal) HM Customs require to determine value and check over all paperwork another ball ache.
Best thing to do is to live in the country and even have ammunition delivered to a private address.
Durkee Atwood
Member
That's exactly what I thought but soon found I was wrong. Belt and Braces is the German answer to bureaucracy. They are an obedient race and will comply with any document they have whether relevant or not.
Durkee Atwood
Member
Nice sentiment and I truly hope you are right. The Scotts are pushing for another referendum so that they might stay in the EU as full members. I guess the worst that could happen is that if they do then we have to remove the cross off the union flag. Then I could whip up to Scotland to get my Euro bargain.
On your other point about trade war being too destructive to contemplate...I guess we should remember that not that long ago Europeans didn't think twice about real war and the obvious destruction that it caused. So I guess we can conclude that whenever the talks break down the only action to take is war, trade or otherwise. Its human nature.
mereside
Well-Known Member
going across on the tunnel is simple bud rock up show cert and get a nice red card to show your carrying a firearm and be on your way simples, hope you get sorted soon atb wayne
Durkee Atwood
Member
I have found that when comparing prices with other countries it has generally gone like this: Here £3000 Europe €3000 (£2706.61 at today's rate) US $3000 (£2453.84) for the same product (depending on where it is manufactured). So its safe to say that there is a saving dependent on exchange rates. At the moment Germany charges 18%VAT as opposed to our 20% so there is a 2% saving to be made there on €3000 (€60). Shipping is probably the fly in the ointment and will be over €100 inc VAT. So the net savings can be around €200 which is a 1000 rounds of .22 ammo. happy days. So yes I would take 30% in a heartbeat.
Orion
Well-Known Member
Many? The only one I am aware of that expressly doesn't carry firearms is Ryanair - but if you're only paying 50p per flight I can sort of understand that policy! It would be quite simple to select one from among the many other airlines that do allow the carriage of lawful sporting firearms.
Why is declaing something on entry a problem? The conditions and advice regarding travelling on Le Shuttle with fierams are clearly stated and available to the public and their own staff: https://www.eurotunnel.com/uk/site-information/firearms/
Yes, correct. But lawfully held firearms are allowed, ammunition as well with some of them. Simply check the ferry company's terms and conditions and comply with them. They might want prior notification of your intention to travel with a firearm but is that a massive hardship? Ferry staff are well aware of the requirements for importation: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...t_point_of_entry_into_uk__final_12_dec_14.pdf
Nonsense. You need to read up on what the requirement is "to prevent, so far as is reasonably practicable, access to the guns by unauthorised persons", and it's nothing to do with "keeping it in sight at all times".
Have a read of Part 7 of the Firearms Security Handbook: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ta/file/117636/firearms-security-handbook.pdf Is this from personal experience? Because it's nothing like the actual situation that occurs when bringing a firearm into the UK as a personal import. UK Border Force are usually well up to speed with the procedure and it takes very little time to clear through - the same applies when travelling with a firearm from or to the UK on a shooting trip. https://basc.org.uk/wp-content/plugins/download-monitor/download.php?id=101
I think you need to bring yourself up to date with the current situation regarding personal importation of firearms - many of the obstacles you are quoting simply don't exist, or are very simply overcome. And you've not answered the previous question of why you believe the services of an RFD are apparently an EU reqirement to handle a personal importation?
8x57
Distinguished Member
Travelling with firearms (e.g. personal import) through the tunnel in my experience couldn't be easier, I've done it twice. I've also travelled on the ferries with firearms and once again no big deal or hassle after all people do it all the time.
The EFP is the one thing that I will miss about exiting the EU.
The EFP is the one thing that I will miss about exiting the EU.
Durkee Atwood
Member
As you are in the know with all this information I hope you have posted your expert knowledge in a sticky so that all can see it. Or do you just like to contradict other members and ridicule them publicly? I have been flying around the world and shooting competition for some time now and I am finding that airlines are changing the rules as they go along.
The law and an officers interpretation of the law or in that case any officials interpretation of the law is what you end up arguing against when you have secured your firearm against unauthorised access and find some git has nicked it anyway. Then you make an insurance claim and they interpret their cover accordingly. I am not talking about what is written and is the law. I refer to what officialdom doesn't know and how some little gob***** thinks he is doing to ensure everything is above board.
I'll give you an example of officialdom gone mad. I was stopped by security and had to open my bag as they had seen what looked like a handgun by their x-ray machine. It was in fact Allen keys. They then looked at a chart that showed all prohibited items but couldn't find them on it. However, they confiscated them because they thought they should be on the list. What I am saying is that firearms owners cannot hope they are free to transport weapons just because they have the right to do so. I feel obliged as a weapon owner to keep my weapon in my sight at all times when travelling for very good reasons. You are free to follow the advice of reasonably practicable prevention. But when you do, just spare a thought for a trip I made to the US...
I had a pistol that was in a carry safe and flying to Miami for a shoot there. The case was personally handed to the pilot as per instructions and a large red label with 'Firearm' on it. The only airline that would allow it was Virgin (this was some years ago). The flight made its first stop in Bangor Maine and customs checked all my paperwork thoroughly. We continued the flight to Miami and I went to customs where I was told it would be held. It wasn't and they spent an hour trying to find it. I stated that the documents were all checked and passed in Bangor. Then it was suggested that I look on the belt. The belt was within twenty feet of the outside doors and there was my weapon safe complete with the big red label 'Firearm' going around virtually on its own. Bear in mind that this is Miami and the doors led to where anyone could gain access. The second part of the flight was treated like an internal flight so there was no security at Miami. I learned a valuable lesson on that trip and I do not trust authorities to have any sense at all when transporting firearms. My weapon safe would have made it difficult for anyone to open but not impossible. I had taken precautions beyond those that were needed to prevent, so far as is practicable, access to the guns by unauthorised persons. But here is my point: I am obliged as a gun owner (beyond the advice of the law) to ensure the safety of other people. Its a moral thing and not merely following basic requirements. Moral integrity is about driving a car at appropriate speeds according to conditions and not at the maximum speeds notified on speed limit signs. I like to think that anything I do with a lethal weapon follows a moral code rather than just keeping within the law. I upped my moral stance with gun ownership and use...and with the greatest of respect...up yours!
The law and an officers interpretation of the law or in that case any officials interpretation of the law is what you end up arguing against when you have secured your firearm against unauthorised access and find some git has nicked it anyway. Then you make an insurance claim and they interpret their cover accordingly. I am not talking about what is written and is the law. I refer to what officialdom doesn't know and how some little gob***** thinks he is doing to ensure everything is above board.
I'll give you an example of officialdom gone mad. I was stopped by security and had to open my bag as they had seen what looked like a handgun by their x-ray machine. It was in fact Allen keys. They then looked at a chart that showed all prohibited items but couldn't find them on it. However, they confiscated them because they thought they should be on the list. What I am saying is that firearms owners cannot hope they are free to transport weapons just because they have the right to do so. I feel obliged as a weapon owner to keep my weapon in my sight at all times when travelling for very good reasons. You are free to follow the advice of reasonably practicable prevention. But when you do, just spare a thought for a trip I made to the US...
I had a pistol that was in a carry safe and flying to Miami for a shoot there. The case was personally handed to the pilot as per instructions and a large red label with 'Firearm' on it. The only airline that would allow it was Virgin (this was some years ago). The flight made its first stop in Bangor Maine and customs checked all my paperwork thoroughly. We continued the flight to Miami and I went to customs where I was told it would be held. It wasn't and they spent an hour trying to find it. I stated that the documents were all checked and passed in Bangor. Then it was suggested that I look on the belt. The belt was within twenty feet of the outside doors and there was my weapon safe complete with the big red label 'Firearm' going around virtually on its own. Bear in mind that this is Miami and the doors led to where anyone could gain access. The second part of the flight was treated like an internal flight so there was no security at Miami. I learned a valuable lesson on that trip and I do not trust authorities to have any sense at all when transporting firearms. My weapon safe would have made it difficult for anyone to open but not impossible. I had taken precautions beyond those that were needed to prevent, so far as is practicable, access to the guns by unauthorised persons. But here is my point: I am obliged as a gun owner (beyond the advice of the law) to ensure the safety of other people. Its a moral thing and not merely following basic requirements. Moral integrity is about driving a car at appropriate speeds according to conditions and not at the maximum speeds notified on speed limit signs. I like to think that anything I do with a lethal weapon follows a moral code rather than just keeping within the law. I upped my moral stance with gun ownership and use...and with the greatest of respect...up yours!
Durkee Atwood
Member
Thanks Wayne, that's good to know as I will being doing this soon and taking two rifles on my EFP...big red card eh...that reminds me of a trip I had to the States many years ago.
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