Import duties from Germany

[GlennUK]

To draw an exact parallel. You live in a little village which has a school, a shop, a health clinic and a sewerage treatment works. It is more than capable of looking after the 500 households.

You now add another 500 to 1000 houses, with no additional investment in local infrastructure - school is overcrowded, roads are blocked, you can never see a doctor, and everytime it rains the sewarage overflows into the rivers.

Exactly the same has happened with Brexit. We had the systems in place to manage our international trade - 50% within the EU, 50% outside.

We overnight mandated that 100% of our trade, customs and immigration has to go through full border checks, but we haven’t got the resources in place to deal with it all. So we have sub optimal systems that do not work and are just getting worse by the day.

Even travelling to and from Europe is a pain - you spend most of your time going through immigration.

Whilst i dont think your analogy is correct i take the point that the problems with Brexit trade was not the reality of importing/exporting to a 3rd country (it was taking place before, and continues post Brexit) , but the resources allocated to it, both by HMG and those undertaking the importing/exporting.

Travelling to Europe is no more difficult than travelling anywhere else, factually prior to Brexit there were more Brits living and working outside the EU than in it (excluding the UK of course).

 

[Heym SR20]

Whilst i dont think your analogy is correct i take the point that the problems with Brexit trade was not the reality of importing/exporting to a 3rd country (it was taking place before, and continues post Brexit) , but the resources allocated to it, both by HMG and those undertaking the importing/exporting.

Travelling to Europe is no more difficult than travelling anywhere else, factually prior to Brexit there were more Brits living and working outside the EU than in it (excluding the UK of course).

But the promise from Boris and tge Brexiteers is that we would have friction free trade with the EU and that as we were no longer part of the EU we would have much easier trading with the rest of the world.

Those in opposition suggested that this might be a little optimistic.

 

[tim@tcs]

But the promise from Boris and tge Brexiteers is that we would have friction free trade with the EU and that as we were no longer part of the EU we would have much easier trading with the rest of the world.

Those in opposition suggested that this might be a little optimistic.

I don’t remember the first sentence as a promise but it doesn’t affect me. My wife is disappointed that her customers in Holland now have to pay through the nose for goods from here. Not sure if it’s Eu wide as so far the only moan has been from the Dutch customers.
Lots of stuff was alleged or “promised “ during the referendum!
We voted to leave and have unfortunately not been well served by those politicians!
The next five years will be interesting!

 

[Heym SR20]

I don’t remember the first sentence as a promise but it doesn’t affect me. My wife is disappointed that her customers in Holland now have to pay through the nose for goods from here. Not sure if it’s Eu wide as so far the only moan has been from the Dutch customers.
Lots of stuff was alleged or “promised “ during the referendum!
We voted to leave and have unfortunately not been well served by those politicians!
The next five years will be interesting!

It does affect you, and indeed it affects all of us. Loss of trade from a UK company, means less revenue for that UK company, which less ability to employ UK based staff, who in turn pay UK taxes such as income tax, VAT and local rates etc.

Less tax revenue, means less money to fund the roads, healthcare, police etc.

So your wife’s business has disgruntled customers - they may well choose to take their business elsewhere. That will a loss in her revenue, which will ultimately result in less profit which will equal a grumpy wife.

I have just come off a discussion with a UK based client that is trying to do things with EU based customers. They are seriously looking at South African based component manufacturing as its cheaper than UK and one hell of a lot easier to supply to EU than it is from UK. South Africa has better trading relations with the EU than the UK does.

 

[GlennUK]

But the promise from Boris and tge Brexiteers is that we would have friction free trade with the EU and that as we were no longer part of the EU we would have much easier trading with the rest of the world.

Those in opposition suggested that this might be a little optimistic.

Thanks, my view is that where we are now is a function of many things, not least the promise of politicians (from all parties/sides of the debate) to abide by the outcome of the vote, and the subsequent failure to do so in practical terms by many of those opposed.

We could spend a lot of time debating/re-running the arguments, the long and the short of it, is that trade is entirely possible practically, although it is always clear that trade is not just about whether its practically possible.

The fact that's manufacturing products outside the uk is cheaper in S.Africa is not news, the only news is that they are considering S.Africa as opposed to China/East Asia which are likely to be cheaper still i suspect. In terms of the practical problems if one is supplying one off then i accept there are problems to be resolved, whether to the overall costs when supplying on corporate/industrial scales is genuinely a barrier will of course be specific to particular products/services.

 

[Heym SR20]

I don’t remember the first sentence as a promise but it doesn’t affect me. My wife is disappointed that her customers in Holland now have to pay through the nose for goods from here. Not sure if it’s Eu wide as so far the only moan has been from the Dutch customers.
Lots of stuff was alleged or “promised “ during the referendum!
We voted to leave and have unfortunately not been well served by those politicians!
The next five years will be interesting!

Or put it another way. Mrs Tim’s Dutch customers are grumpy at all the extra cost.

In the past it was easy to travel to any European customer. Go to airport, jump on aeroplane, travel to see customer and fly back. Or it was equally easy to go and see a supplier in the UK. You could do there and back in a day.

Now - you spend endless hours trying to get through border control. It now means that you day trip is at least an overnight, so in effect two days out of the office. Standing in a queue is totally unproductive.

So Mrs Tim’s Dutch customers are grumpy, but it is an enbuggerance to go and see them to placate things. And the costs for a typical visit have more than doubled.

Mrs Tim’s Dutch customers find alternative suppliers. Mrs Tim now has to spend more money and more time on finding new customers. Given that she is exporting, chances are that there are limited number of potential UK customers.

Costs of finding new European customers has gone up, together with costs of supplying them.

Alternatively she has to look in the US, middle east, Africa, far east, Australaisia etc. Pretty much £1,500 just for air fares before you do much else. Most will result in a week out of the office.

Net result is less profit for Mrs Tim, but still having to do the same amount of work.

Tim does have a big birthday coming up, and Mrs Tim was going to surprise him with a new custom rifle.

However, the costs of all the bits and pieces for the custom rifle have gone up - and for pretty much the same reasons that her business has gone down.

She looks at her bank account and makes the decision that better to keep some cash on hand to pay for basic living costs, that Tim has a perfectly good rifle, and a Birthday card and a cake will perfectly fine for his birthday. He won’t mind because he doesn’t think that cost of doing business thanks to Brexit effects him.

 

[tim@tcs]

The Dutch are notoriously tight fisted as a race but I’ve plenty of cloggie mates!
It’s the Dutch post office charging extra!
We have never needed to visit them, we used to catch up at the Game fairs and if they want anything they just phone. Madam is however going to visit around Christmas time
Me? I only go sausage side every five years for a visit to my Grandfathers grave. I’m not going next time as it clashes with my sisters fiftieth birthday so maybe later in the year.
If I want a foreign holiday Scotland or Ireland are easy enough to get to.
At my age I’m no longer seeking a week in the sun. Plenty to do at home!
I’m close enough to the Chunnel that I’ve used it regularly and since Brexit never noticed any delays but I always travel very early in the morning!

 

[tim@tcs]

Tim does have a big birthday coming up, and Mrs Tim was going to surprise him with a new custom rifle.

You’ve obviously confused my wife for one that GAF about me!

 

[GlennUK]

Or put it another way. Mrs Tim’s Dutch customers are grumpy at all the extra cost.

In the past it was easy to travel to any European customer. Go to airport, jump on aeroplane, travel to see customer and fly back. Or it was equally easy to go and see a supplier in the UK. You could do there and back in a day.

Now - you spend endless hours trying to get through border control. It now means that you day trip is at least an overnight, so in effect two days out of the office. Standing in a queue is totally unproductive.

So Mrs Tim’s Dutch customers are grumpy, but it is an enbuggerance to go and see them to placate things. And the costs for a typical visit have more than doubled.

Mrs Tim’s Dutch customers find alternative suppliers. Mrs Tim now has to spend more money and more time on finding new customers. Given that she is exporting, chances are that there are limited number of potential UK customers.

Costs of finding new European customers has gone up, together with costs of supplying them.

Alternatively she has to look in the US, middle east, Africa, far east, Australaisia etc. Pretty much £1,500 just for air fares before you do much else. Most will result in a week out of the office.

Net result is less profit for Mrs Tim, but still having to do the same amount of work.

Tim does have a big birthday coming up, and Mrs Tim was going to surprise him with a new custom rifle.

However, the costs of all the bits and pieces for the custom rifle have gone up - and for pretty much the same reasons that her business has gone down.

She looks at her bank account and makes the decision that better to keep some cash on hand to pay for basic living costs, that Tim has a perfectly good rifle, and a Birthday card and a cake will perfectly fine for his birthday. He won’t mind because he doesn’t think that cost of doing business thanks to Brexit effects him.

Travel to Europe is still easy in a day, it you really have a mind to less than a day depending on the length of your meetings and which part of Europe you want to travel to. the biggest barrier is not passport control but airport security IME.

If you travel for business you will know that international travel beyond the EU, does not necessitate a week out of the office, assuming one is organised. Whether one wants to travel further afield for business will of course depend on wider commercial considieriotns over purely the cost of a flight and the time costs, i.e. what is the reward commercially for the travel, the same applies to travel within the UK, to the EU and worldwide.

The reasons for rising prices are not Brexit alone (if at all) but are much more complex.

 

[enfieldspares]

I was making a point about the House of Lords not being democratic as they weren't elected and yet have more power over out daily lives than those MEPs who we did elect.

This. +1. Lord Zac Goldsmith campaigned to leave the EU as it was undemocratic. Lost what was three out of the four Parliamentary Elections he stood in and then when he loses the final one of the four gets appointed as a Johnson "pal at Eton" to the unelected House of Lords for the rest of his life or until age eighty. Yet somehow that's different.

 

[enfieldspares]

Travel to Europe is still easy in a day, it you really have a mind to less than a day depending on the length of your meetings and which part of Europe you want to travel to. the biggest barrier is not passport control but airport security IME.

Pretty much correct. The biggest worry is still that the train or transport connections have been delayed or are out of service. I'll be going to Paris tomorrow on the 10.31am Eurostar then coming back to the UK from Paris that same day on the 6.12pm Eurostar. Time enough to do what I need to do and still have a croque monsieur with salad and a large lemonade shandy at reasonably priced "The Hideout Pub" outside Gare du Nord. And a baguette or two to bring home from the excellent boulangerie next door. I'll leave Leicester for London at 7.30am and be back in Leicester from London at 9.30pm.

 

[tim@tcs]

Mrs Tim’s Dutch customers find alternative suppliers. Mrs Tim now has to spend more money and more time on finding new customers. Given that she is exporting, chances are that there are limited number of potential UK customers.

Fortunately she knows one customer really well who is now her Dutch distributor!
He orders in bulk gets a discount and the deliveries usually cover the cost of his own requirements!
It’s all very amenable

 

[Heym SR20]

Fortunately she knows one customer really well who is now her Dutch distributor!
He orders in bulk gets a discount and the deliveries usually cover the cost of his own requirements!
It’s all very amenable

So rather than all the customers ordering direct from the UK, paying the full price, with distribution via UK distributors and all the revenues and profits remaining in the UK, the business now sends all the goods at a wholesale price to a Dutch distributor. The Dutch distributor in turn takes the retail price and all the distribution costs now stay in the Netherlands.

Or to put it in numbers.

10 customers order a £100 product with £10 delivery fee. Cost of goods £50, wholesale price is £70.

So direct to customer.

£1,100 total revenue
£100 fee to Post
£500 profit.

Post Brexit via Destributor. Lets ignore currency fluctuations. Assume £50 wholesale shipping to distributor.

£750 total revenue (£700 total revenue plus £50 shipping cost)

Less £500 cost of goods
£200 profit.

Meanwhile Distributor in Europe -

£1,100 total revenue (retail price plus postage)
Less £850 (wholesale price plus shipping plus postage).

Distributor profit £250.
Fee to euro post £100.

So in the above example, by selling via a distribution partner you giving up a significant chunk of revenue together with a good chunk of profit.

And UK Plc rather than getting the full retail price, the postage and the full profit, and lets not forget the full VAT on all of this, now only gets the wholesale price and wholesale distribution fee.

A significant chunk of the profit and final distribution is taken by the other country.

 

[tim@tcs]

So rather than all the customers ordering direct from the UK, paying the full price, with distribution via UK distributors and all the revenues and profits remaining in the UK, the business now sends all the goods at a wholesale price to a Dutch distributor. The Dutch distributor in turn takes the retail price and all the distribution costs now stay in the Netherlands.

Not quite, the boss has always used national distributors and we have them in Sweden, Switzerland and now Holland. The margin of profit is slightly smaller but so is the amount of tax we pay so it’s easier for her.
It is actually simpler for her now which makes sense as we get older dealing with foreign orders is best dealt with by someone who speaks their language and understands the product. She also has a couple of GB dealers and one in NI and these have been customers who kept comeback and ordering more and more so offers then dealer rates is an easy win.
Cuts down on our postage and advertising costs and as said we are getting older and don’t want to do ten to fifteen game fair type events a year!
Otherwise you have a point but it doesn’t apply to her business model

 

[Bavarianbrit]

We were in Llandudno last night, the two others on our breakfast table are spending many weeks house hunting in North Wales as they had had worked 7 years in Turkey followed by 7 more in NZ now they wanted to retire to Portugal but the visa hassle there after Brexit has blown it out of the water for them.

 

[Dickie]

The problem with the brexit was the negotiations were dome mainly by remainers that were ****ed off that the public didn’t play their game.
If the remainer politicians of all parties had worked harder then they would have got the result they wanted but they thought it was going to be a win for them and it bit them in the behind.
So we are now paying the price of their incompetence at loosing the referendum then making a balls up of the divorce negotiations.

 

[Heym SR20]

The problem with the brexit was the negotiations were dome mainly by remainers that were ****ed off that the public didn’t play their game.
If the remainer politicians of all parties had worked harder then they would have got the result they wanted but they thought it was going to be a win for them and it bit them in the behind.
So we are now paying the price of their incompetence at loosing the referendum then making a balls up of the divorce negotiations.

No, the majority of the negotiations were lead by the likes of David Davies and Rees-Mogg who wanted complete separation from Europe. There were many compromises in earlier drafts, particularly on things like professional and financial services, the European Firearms Pass and freedom of movement for workers within businesses etc. In other words the sort of access that Norway, Switzerland and Northern Ireland have

They refused these compromises at the final draft.

 

[GlennUK]

No, the majority of the negotiations were lead by the likes of David Davies and Rees-Mogg who wanted complete separation from Europe. There were many compromises in earlier drafts, particularly on things like professional and financial services, the European Firearms Pass and freedom of movement for workers within businesses etc. In other words the sort of access that Norway, Switzerland and Northern Ireland have

They refused these compromises at the final draft.

Neither comments is entirely correct IMHO, the negotiations were conducted in a political environment in the UK, which was almost entirely dominated by those who did not want to leave, accepting that Davies/Rees-Mogg had completely opposite perspectives.

I dont believe that anyone seriously expected the result of the ref to return a leave vote, not Cameron, May, Johnson all remainers (nor me, and who had a signficant impact on where we ended up, and the deal we ended up with (except for me).

 

[Dunwaters]

The point of the EU negotiations was to keep you in the club. Had you stayed you might have weaselled a few concessions out of the situation.
Once you made it clear that you were definitely going and definitely going on a given date, there was no more negotiation by the EU.
The EU didn’t need to concede anything because they already knew what the the result of the negotiations would be, BREXIT.
Your negotiators were playing draw poker with all their cards face up on the table.

 

[GlennUK]

The point of the EU negotiations was to keep you in the club. Had you stayed you might have weaselled a few concessions out of the situation.
Once you made it clear that you were definitely going and definitely going on a given date, there was no more negotiation by the EU.
The EU didn’t need to concede anything because they already knew what the the result of the negotiations would be, BREXIT.
Your negotiators were playing draw poker with all their cards face up on the table.

Arguably the situation was worse than that with most of those who wanted to remain, actively working to defeat the negotiations in the hope that there would be a change of direction.

So not only were our hands disclosed but the pack was loaded as well.