Jelen Advanced deer management

I personally know someone who has passed his DSC 2 course and in theory be better qualified than me (only DSC1, feeble I know) and has only shot 8 deer in his life, my several hundred count for nothing.

but he is more qualified, you have more experience but that isnt measurable, you may have shot several hundreds and done it wrong all these years, :old:
its like the farmers lad having being driving since he was 10 claiming he is a better driver at 16 than his mate at 17 who just passed his test. who can say?
 
but he is more qualified, you have more experience but that isnt measurable, you may have shot several hundreds and done it wrong all these years, :old:
its like the farmers lad having being driving since he was 10 claiming he is a better driver at 16 than his mate at 17 who just passed his test. who can say?

Exactly.

The reality is that one is better qualified but the other has more experience. The two things are not the same.

Qualifications are objectively measured, experience is subjectively measured.

willie_gunn
 
The course is not free nor is it compulsory for anyone to do. If people decide to part with their money for whatever their reasons then that is up to themselves. I am enrolled onto the September course as it is something I wanted to do. Hopefully meet new people learn something new and have an enjoyable educational few days with like minded people. Then put what I've learnt into practice. I'm an engineer and worked in a lot of environments where people say " we always do it like this." like any skill, trade or activity there are always new ways to approach something and you never stop learning.

 
The course is not free nor is it compulsory for anyone to do. If people decide to part with their money for whatever their reasons then that is up to themselves. I am enrolled onto the September course as it is something I wanted to do. Hopefully meet new people learn something new and have an enjoyable educational few days with like minded people. Then put what I've learnt into practice. I'm an engineer and worked in a lot of environments where people say " we always do it like this." like any skill, trade or activity there are always new ways to approach something and you never stop learning.


Lordy, you have the mindset that will really benefit from this course...my mind is still buzzing from this weekend training, the shared knowledge from those also attending make the whole training environment an extra benefit.
 
would be interested to know if this is the advanced course what is the basic one if there isn't one its just a Deer management course

looking at he courses they offer there isnt
but it is placed on the page after DCS1 and 2 etc making it look like the progression especially with the word advanced
Its also worded as aimed are a professional level course but then looking so is the DSC stuff.

Nothing wrong with all that its in line with USA methods of promoting and giving courses in the Diving industry for example tho jumping straight into an advanced course would never be allowed in Diving one its not sensible but also bad business sense losing out on the money from basic course fees site from you or the industry as a whole (course providers) and at a knock down price £299 discount from £525

So an advanced course ( perceived placed higher level than DSC2 when looking at the Jelen training page for the uninitiated)
for the same (discounted) price as the a basic DSC1. And even at full price cheaper than a DSC2 and only 3 days

hopefully it wont follow by diluting the core stuff and hiving it of into separate modules you pay extra for ie a High seat specialty, long range specialty , Head shooting specialty , night foxing intro specialty etc etc which IMO is the bad part of PADI dive training (some stuff does need a separate course all to it self)

(oh before you start I am a PADI Dive instructor so have had the brain washing course on how to Sell and teach US Style :roll:)

most important is that People come away feeling they have had a positive experience and value for money which everybody so far on this course in this thread seems to have

ATB

​Duncan
 
Duncan

I think the three courses need to be seen in the context of which they are offered. Here is what you can glean from the DMQ and BDS websites:

DSC1 - "A basic qualification for deer stalkers and managers. It is a largely knowledge based qualification which enables candidates to demonstrate their understanding of basic deer management principles and meat hygiene, and to show competence in shooting at simulated targets". DSC1 is primarily classroom based but with practical sessions on safety, gralloching, etc. Assessment is via 5 areas; written, visual, safety, shooting, game hygiene. There are no pre-requisites for DSC1.

DSC2 - "A practically based qualification which enables candidates to demonstrate their knowledge and competence in legally, safely and humanely culling deer and dealing with carcasses hygienically". Assessment is based on evidence that the candidate collects and that is verified by witnesses. DSC1 is a pre-requisite for DSC2.

Deer Management - "Aimed primarily at stalkers, landowners and managers who would usually be the 'decision makers' concerning deer management issues appertaining to deer within differing habitats. The course is also available to those who may have to advise others on deer management matters of for those wishing to extend their general deer management knowledge." There are no pre-requisites for the Deer Management course.

Consider also that DSC1 and DSC2 are controlled by DMQ. DMQ is responsible for maintaining the standard of the DSC, assuring the quality of the assessment process and administering the awards themselves. DMQ is not involved in the content, assessment or administration of the Deer Management course. Courses in Deer Management (BDS and Jelen) are instead approved by LANTRA. This difference is clouded in some eyes by the inevitable fact that some of the trainers of DSC1 and DSC2 also happen to deliver Deer Management courses!

So DSC1 and DSC2 are primarily - indeed exclusively - aimed at deer stalkers, whereas the Deer Manager Course is targeted at those who have a broader interest in deer and their management. Their intended audiences are therefore different, but related. Would there be sufficient demand for a course beyond DSC2 that came at Deer Management purely from a stalking perspective? Personally I think it unlikely, but would be happy to see someone give it a go.

willie_gunn
 
yes Imlooking at it purly from the POV given on the Jelen website andthe waythey are presented and from some one not knowing all the info you have given
its "Advanced" Title assumes a higher level than something its Shooting test is harder than DSC1 but from your desc and some on here its not aimed nesiceraly at some one who pulls the trigger but may advise on Deer in general
as i say from the outside looking in via jelen (not bothering to look further to DMQ or BDS or LANTRA) its preenttion is differnt than it acually is.

MAybe the advanced is to put it ahead of the BDS course of the same type

ATB
Duncan
 
If I'm correct, I think the "Advanced" bit originally came from the fact that what is now the BDS Deer Management course used to be called the "Advanced Stalkers Certificate".

Old habits and all that....

Personally I think a better title for the course would just be "Deer Management" (leading to a "Deer Management Certificate" or DMC even ;)), if nothing else to differentiate it from the stalking qualifications.

willie_gunn
 
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Would there be sufficient demand for a course beyond DSC2 that came at Deer Management purely from a stalking perspective? Personally I think it unlikely, but would be happy to see someone give it a go.

Looking to Scotland, I think something just like that may be required in future.

At the moment entry to the SNH "Fit and Competent" register recognises a DSC2 completed in the last five years as sufficient qualification. But in future that is expected to change and it is not clear what the requirement will be to remain on the register more than five years post-DSC2, other than "providing details of two referees who can provide evidence that you meet the required standards." which seems wooly and open to abuse.

For some aspects of deer management in Scotland, being on the "Fit and Competent" register is essential.

Edit:

I've just checked the requirements for F+C renewal and they are interesting:

Details of any evidence of continued professional development in Deer Management
Are you a Best Practice subscriber?
Have you attended any Best Practice Demonstration Events?
If yes above, where?
Have you attended any courses in deer management since being on the Fit and
Competent Register?
If yes above, where and when?
Have you attended any open days, public events, deer management group
meetings or seminars where deer management has been discussed since being
on the Fit and Competent Register?
If yes above, where and when?
Please detail any further information that you feel may be appropriate to demonstrate an element
of continuous professional development in deer management.
 
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If I'm correct, I think the "Advanced" bit originally came from the fact that what is now the BDS Deer Management course used to be called the "Advanced Stalkers Certificate".

Old habits and all that....

Personally I think a better title for the course would just be "Deer Management" (leading to a "Deer Management Certificate" or DMC even ;)), if nothing else to differentiate it from the stalking qualifications.

willie_gunn


yes confusing to us new peeps

even more as the DMQ you pointed out is Deer Management Qualifications ltd and as you quoted from them

DSC1 - "A basic qualification for deer stalkers and managers. It is a largely knowledge based qualification which enables candidates to demonstrate their understanding of basic deer management principles and meat hygiene, and to show competence in shooting at simulated targets". DSC1 is primarily classroom based but with practical sessions on safety, gralloching, etc. Assessment is via 5 areas; written, visual, safety, shooting, game hygiene. There are no pre-requisites for DSC1.

now where does an Advanced Deer Management course fit ??????????? :shock: :D surely after the Basic one (oh yes different Authority ;) doesn't fit at all )

and why dosnt "Deer Management Qualifications ltd" offer the Advanced Deer Management Course based on the company name would have thought it was a shoe in



Question those who Did it and already had DSC1 was there much duplication ( i would expect a little at least)

ATB

​Duncan
 
Take your pick of the meaning Advanced:-

1.
to move or bring forward: The general advanced his troops to the new position.
2. to bring into consideration or notice; suggest; propose: to advance reasons for a tax cut.
3. to improve; further: to advance one's interests.
4. to raise in rank; promote: The board of directors advanced him to president.
5. to raise in rate or amount; increase: to advance the price.
6. to bring forward in time; accelerate: to advance growth; to advance clocks one hour.
7. to supply beforehand; furnish on credit or before goods are delivered or work is done.
8. to furnish as part of a stock or fund.
9. to supply or pay in expectation of reimbursement: They advanced her $5000 against future royalties.
10. to schedule at a later time or date: to advance a meeting from early to late fall.
11. Informal.to do advance publicity for: to advance a rock singer's personal appearances; the most heavily advanced sports event in history.

I think 3 is the meaning in this case with the key word in my eyes being improve. By taking this course you are wishing to improve your Deer management skills and advance your intrest in the subject.
 
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Duncan

Yes, the naming is confusing. DMQ is the standards authority, but they only administer DSC1 and DSC2. They don't offer the Advanced Deer Management course because......I'll find out and let you know.

If you mean is there much duplication between DSC1 and the Deer Management course, then no, very little in fact. Having done DSC1, DSC2 and Deer Management I would say that you will get something different for each. If your primary concern is stalking and culling deer, then DSC1 and DSC2 will suffice. If you are interested in deer in the wider environment, and you have experience of deer already (from whatever perspective) then the Deer Management course is a great way to spend a week with like minded people.

willie_gunn
 
Duncan

Yes, the naming is confusing. DMQ is the standards authority, but they only administer DSC1 and DSC2. They don't offer the Advanced Deer Management course because......I'll find out and let you know.

If you mean is there much duplication between DSC1 and the Deer Management course, then no, very little in fact. Having done DSC1, DSC2 and Deer Management I would say that you will get something different for each. If your primary concern is stalking and culling deer, then DSC1 and DSC2 will suffice. If you are interested in deer in the wider environment, and you have experience of deer already (from whatever perspective) then the Deer Management course is a great way to spend a week with like minded people.

willie_gunn

:tiphat:
 
(oh before you start I am a PADI Dive instructor so have had the brain washing course on how to Sell and teach US Style :roll:)


ATB

​Duncan

Sorry Duncan, didnt realise an opposing view meant i was "starting"

Padi --- great for bubble makers but when you start serious diving GUE principles all the way..

Atb

Terry
 
Sorry Duncan, didnt realise an opposing view meant i was "starting"

Padi --- great for bubble makers but when you start serious diving GUE principles all the way..

Atb

Terry


lol I meant that I do know first hand about selling and teaching courses in a commercial environment as I was using Diving as an example

and yes GUE is greatso i doubt we have an opposing view ;) I did my Technical Dive training With Izzy at Underwater Explorers tho as a TDI course using GUE principles and Kit style something I brought back into my PADI teaching as much as possible Ive pretty much stopped diving now and that's why Im getting back into shooting so i didn't go down DIR Fundamentals etc . Hopfully I can convert some of the mass of Dive kit(Halcyon etc) Ive got into some Shootin Irons :D.

For me I Find teaching makes you learn a subject more (nothing liek Students asking questions to make sure you know the manual and what happens in the rel world of what ever your into ) and that studying at the next level up is also great so would look at doing a Deer Managment course in the future Not cause I needed to but out of interest in the wider picture

ATB

​Duncan
 
Pheasant Sniper, didn't really mean to have a go. As some others have said, it can be hard conveying emotions on online forums but all I was getting at is that it seemed to me that the broad nature of the course meant that it could be approached from a number of perspectives, only one of which might be DMQs. Experienced stalker as defined by DSC1 & 2 and/or equivalent experience attending the course should not be held back by others without such qualifications and/or experience and I did feel, perhaps rashly, that it was a bit offensive to imply so, which might not have been your intention at all, I'm sure.

I have DSC1 and will work towards DSC2. I am also booking stalking before the course so with some luck I will have more practical knowledge by the time of the course but regardless, I would happily attend tomorrow and I am sure there is much to be gained by looking at wider issues linked to deer management within the British landscape.

I would also agree that having an 'Advanced' course may suggest that the other currently existing qualifications form the 'Basic' and 'Intermediate' courses, but this is not the way I would personally look at it and I certainly would not compare a land manager with ADM certification with an experienced stalker with decades of experience and DSC1 & 2 as both approaches are quite different, even though at an individual level many do both jobs, often very professionally sometimes without any of said qualifications.

At the end of the day, it's whatever works for you, according to your circumstances, means and access to other ways of learning.

​Lordy, looking forward to meeting you there in September.
 
yes thibaud be good to meet you, be interesting to see if any other faces off here are doing it.
 
lol I meant that I do know first hand about selling and teaching courses in a commercial environment as I was using Diving as an example

and yes GUE is greatso i doubt we have an opposing view ;) I did my Technical Dive training With Izzy at Underwater Explorers tho as a TDI course using GUE principles and Kit style something I brought back into my PADI teaching as much as possible Ive pretty much stopped diving now and that's why Im getting back into shooting so i didn't go down DIR Fundamentals etc . Hopfully I can convert some of the mass of Dive kit(Halcyon etc) Ive got into some Shootin Irons :D.

For me I Find teaching makes you learn a subject more (nothing liek Students asking questions to make sure you know the manual and what happens in the rel world of what ever your into ) and that studying at the next level up is also great so would look at doing a Deer Managment course in the future Not cause I needed to but out of interest in the wider picture

ATB

​Duncan

Duncan, send me a pm and come on over to Poole for a Roe buck if you fancy it...

I have done a lot of training with Izzy and a lot of dives with him last season

What a great bloke and knowledgeable instructor. Also a great friend.

We both share a passion for the deep wrecks and shipwreck project
Small world

Atb

Terry
 
Pheasant Sniper, didn't really mean to have a go. As some others have said, it can be hard conveying emotions on online forums but all I was getting at is that it seemed to me that the broad nature of the course meant that it could be approached from a number of perspectives, only one of which might be DMQs. Experienced stalker as defined by DSC1 & 2 and/or equivalent experience attending the course should not be held back by others without such qualifications and/or experience and I did feel, perhaps rashly, that it was a bit offensive to imply so, which might not have been your intention at all, I'm sure.

I have DSC1 and will work towards DSC2. I am also booking stalking before the course so with some luck I will have more practical knowledge by the time of the course but regardless, I would happily attend tomorrow and I am sure there is much to be gained by looking at wider issues linked to deer management within the British landscape.

I would also agree that having an 'Advanced' course may suggest that the other currently existing qualifications form the 'Basic' and 'Intermediate' courses, but this is not the way I would personally look at it and I certainly would not compare a land manager with ADM certification with an experienced stalker with decades of experience and DSC1 & 2 as both approaches are quite different, even though at an individual level many do both jobs, often very professionally sometimes without any of said qualifications.

At the end of the day, it's whatever works for you, according to your circumstances, means and access to other ways of learning.

​Lordy, looking forward to meeting you there in September.

No worries thibaud..

Whatever anybodys view all those leaving the course will be better for it

Good luck

Terry
 
Duncan, send me a pm and come on over to Poole for a Roe buck if you fancy it...

I have done a lot of training with Izzy and a lot of dives with him last season

What a great bloke and knowledgeable instructor. Also a great friend.

We both share a passion for the deep wrecks and shipwreck project
Small world

Atb

Terry


​definatly a nice guy one you want on a team if it all gos wrong as he proved when he blew off a lot of Deco andgot a unconcious team mate safe to the pot after a gas switch mix up 100% O2 at 21 m is not good as you know,

​ Wrecks and hunting where my passion under water

you will probably know JAmes clarke then i did my TDI courses with him when we stated down the tehnical route tho hes off in rebreather land now
 
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