Maybe ye should consider a vote for independence so ye could take back control of your borders?
Junior doctors strike
- Thread starter big ears
- Start date
You clearly have a different recollection of how the NHS was “working” under Labour.
If the NHS can’t work when it has an annual budget of £153 billion pumped into it, the model is clearly broken.
It's not about "recollection" willie, it's about facts.
Look them up, study them, educate yourself.
You mean facts like the difference in take up of private health insurance?
Whitefront
Well-Known Member
It was the Labour government that introduced the crapulous GP contract (2004), which has caused so much grief, not least by allowing GPs to dump out of hours care.
As for borders, the first thing we should do is abolish to Common Travel Area with Ireland.
As for borders, the first thing we should do is abolish to Common Travel Area with Ireland.
No willie that's not the fact I was referring to.
At the moment I don't have the time or the crayons to explain to you but maybe I will some other time, if you're still stuck.
I get it.
It’s only certain facts you’re interested in, just not the ones that don’t fit your particular narrative.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Some colleagues are working with one of the Ambulance companies that has a contract with an NHS trust to provide ambulance services.
They are being asked to take over another provate sector ambulance company that has gone into administration.
Looking through the accounts of the failed company there is huge layer of management fees and lots of expensive motor cars on the books.
Pre pandemic I looked at a company providing private sector support to the NHS giving critical care (dialysis, oxygen etc) in the patients home rather than in hospital. The profit margins were obscene. But they were winning business because they could do it cheaper than the NHS.
Just two examples of how yours and my hard earned are just being ****ed against the wall. There is so so much in the NHS, and this whole idea of just privatising everything just means that we as tax payings are paying for somebody elses profit.
Healthcare is actually very simple. It should be doctor, nurse and patient led, with staff paid good salaries and working reasonable hours. And local hospitals work closely with local GPs so there is continuity of care.
And the management consultants and private sector providers need to be booted into the long grass.
In the UK we have one of the highest per capita spend on healrhcare with about the worst outcomes.
NHS has all the hallmarks of failed organisation. Bullying, staff absence, strikes etc are all very clear signals.
And it has bugger all to do with money, but everything to do with very poor leadership, micro management and interference. I suppose when the likes of Hancock and Musef are ministers in charge its hardly surprising
They are being asked to take over another provate sector ambulance company that has gone into administration.
Looking through the accounts of the failed company there is huge layer of management fees and lots of expensive motor cars on the books.
Pre pandemic I looked at a company providing private sector support to the NHS giving critical care (dialysis, oxygen etc) in the patients home rather than in hospital. The profit margins were obscene. But they were winning business because they could do it cheaper than the NHS.
Just two examples of how yours and my hard earned are just being ****ed against the wall. There is so so much in the NHS, and this whole idea of just privatising everything just means that we as tax payings are paying for somebody elses profit.
Healthcare is actually very simple. It should be doctor, nurse and patient led, with staff paid good salaries and working reasonable hours. And local hospitals work closely with local GPs so there is continuity of care.
And the management consultants and private sector providers need to be booted into the long grass.
In the UK we have one of the highest per capita spend on healrhcare with about the worst outcomes.
NHS has all the hallmarks of failed organisation. Bullying, staff absence, strikes etc are all very clear signals.
And it has bugger all to do with money, but everything to do with very poor leadership, micro management and interference. I suppose when the likes of Hancock and Musef are ministers in charge its hardly surprising
big ears
Well-Known Member
Ok if we are going to get political here is my view as someone working within the health service and seeing a Tory then Labour then Tory government.
1. They all made a political tool of the NHS rather than letting it decide priorities.
2. The Tories brought in the internal market getting hospitals to compete with each other. This was a disaster and the beginning of the end. Rather than pooling resources each hospital had to do everything. Costing much more.
3. Under Labour the health service was funded appropriately and significant improvements were seen across the board. But they got greedy and made promises in waiting times which were not workable within the budget provided.
4. The last twelve years have shown a gradual reduction in services and budget causing the state we finds our selves in now.
5. The NHS has always existed by those working paying through NI for the old and those who cannot work. This balance has been upset by more people living longer and a shrinking workforce.
6. The NHS is in crisis.
7. Once it’s gone you will regret loosing it so be careful for what you wish for.
Can we move back to supporting the junior doctors?
Rasputin
Well-Known Member
Nhs has never had more money…. It’s politicians fault from all sides because they are not allowed to critique the sacred cow that is the NHS. All equally culpable make no mistake about it. A political football for blaming the other side nothing more.
My argument has been that the NHS model is broken, so it really doesn’t matter which party is in power. By all means vote Labour next year if you think that will fix the NHS - it won’t, of course, but then you probably know that already.
We are pumping £160.4 billion into the NHS this year. How much more does it need? The system is designed to consume every pound that is thrown at it.
According to the BMA’s own figures, health expenditure in the UK in 2021 was 11.9% of GDP. Before the pandemic it was 9.9%. In Ireland, for example, it was 6.7% in 2021.
Why the differential?
Now why didn't I think of that. Big problem though, we can't get enough top quality Italians to man them now.
Scotty99
Well-Known Member
Now we are getting to the root of this debate. The NHS model of the majority of healthcare for the general population being provide “free at the point of delivery” does not work, unless we as tax payers are prepared to double or triple the amount of cash we pour into it, and then only maybe.
We need to have a model like Ireland and the US where a significant number of people have private health insurance either through their employer or if they can afford it privately. The NHS should provide healthcare for those that can’t afford it, similar to the Medicare and Medicaid programs in the US.
big ears
Well-Known Member
Differential is down to need, age of population, demographics and dare I say people’s expectations of what can be done in the NHS. If you pay for it you think “do I need this” before demanding.
A classic example is all on here who were making such a big noise for paying for their doctors to sign their FAC health form free saying it was part of the NHS. It wasn’t, never had been but still people demanded it from the NHS workers and were rude and derogatory when they were told to pay for it.
You cannot have it both ways.
You're nowhere near the point of the discussion, the topic is Junior Doctors going on strike because of pay cuts.
Nurses, Doctors and emergency vehicle drivers are all earning less in real terms than they were in 2010 and are finding it hard to cope with the cost of living.
A couple of years ago ye were out on the streets applauding them, now your MP in charge of discussing their work conditions and wages won't even meet them. Where the f**k is yer pride? People should be marching on the streets and protesting at the way these people and ye as their customers are being treated.
Your former empire is turning more into a third world country at an alarming rate and ye are swallowing the utter crap your Tory government and press are feeding ye like starving mullet.
Ye have become an international laughing stock that gives everyone else a new self inflicted calamity to laugh at on a regular basis. When the EU introduce the new Entry and Exit biometric checks in November the last thing anyone with half a brain will want is a UK passport.
I don’t want it both ways.
I want the most successful, cost-effective, clinical outcome. If that means questioning the religion that the NHS has become, so be it. I really don’t mind losing the NHS if it means that healthcare is improved.
There are models of healthcare all around the world that we can surely learn from. Why not the Australian or New Zealand models, which would deliver better pay for doctors, and better outcomes for patients when it comes to KPI’s such as survival rates for common cancers?
Until we have an honest debate about whether the NHS is still fit for purpose, we are simply pouring bad money after good.
Keep up - ETIAS has been delayed again to an unspecified date in 2024.
big ears
Well-Known Member
Hi sorry I’m not disagreeing with you. The model we have doesn’t work. Having worked in the NZ system it’s better but not perfect either.
The point I was making, obviously not very well, is that fundamental to any change is the users realising they cannot get everything they want. Politicians can go so far but the public also need to change. Start having realistic expectations of what health care is about. Take a bit of responsibility for their own health rather than the expectation that the NHS will sort it for them.
I like the Australian approach of ,”we care about your health, but it is your responsibility “
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