Junior doctors strike

[20-250]

Just Dentistry in general. Most don’t stick the NHS because of the UDT system

Presume you mean UDA?

My closest NHS dentist is on the sofa next to me, Lloyd90.

 

[big ears]

Presume you mean UDA?

My closest NHS dentist is on the sofa next to me, Lloyd90.

Interesting discussions you must now be having

 

[sikamalc]

There must be a reason why your daughter has chosen this path and please don't say its for the love of looking after or caring for people or medicine, as I said earlier in the post I was in a job early in life which was a job I always wanted to do but soon realised it wasn't for me and got out of it even though it would have lead to better things.
Doctors Nurses Care workers Supermarket workers delivery drivers and everyone else who works to keep the country going all do a fantastic job but they all do it for one reason and one reason only and that is for money.
Everyone has a choice what they want to do in life, The system may need looking at from what you're saying and if things are really as bad as your saying I would have chose a different career path

Some people join a profession to care for people. Just because you didn't find a place you enjoyed and loved does not mean others are the same.
We have choices in life, maybe you made the wrong choice. That does not mean others have. Some people do care for others in this world. Thank fully.

 

[Scotty99]

Ok so the waiting lists now stand at 7.1 million. 379,000 are waiting over a year. No one is waiting two years. At the end of Covid lockdown no one was waiting 4 years and whoever told you that was telling porkies.
Prior to Covid patients care was delayed at the last minute because of there being no beds,sadly not uncommonly. When we were over run with the pandemic no surgery happened as we had no anaesthetic machines as they were used to ventilate patients.
There was not ever a conscious process of “treating Covid patients instead of cancer”. Trust me what happened during the pandemic was a war zone where all staff in the NHS did a darn site better than provide ADEQUATE care as you seem to think.

“

What is the average time for a knee replacement in the UK?​

According to a report from the Royal College of Surgeons in England, the number of patients on the NHS waiting list reached six million in 2022. Of these, over 18,500 had been waiting for more than two years for their surgery. Patients facing the longest waiting times are for Trauma and Orthopaedic treatment, such as hip and knee replacements.*1*

In contrast, the average waiting time for private patients is between four and six weeks. “

 

[big ears]

“

What is the average time for a knee replacement in the UK?​

According to a report from the Royal College of Surgeons in England, the number of patients on the NHS waiting list reached six million in 2022. Of these, over 18,500 had been waiting for more than two years for their surgery. Patients facing the longest waiting times are for Trauma and Orthopaedic treatment, such as hip and knee replacements.*1*

In contrast, the average waiting time for private patients is between four and six weeks. “

Out of date data.
Look at the statistics from march 2023 which were the ones I quoted. Looks like those ADEQUATE performing workers have made an improvement.

It’s always been quicker if you pay. Private hospitals only take the low risk patients so can turn them around quickly so never a bed issue.

 

[Scotty99]

Out of date data.
Look at the statistics from march 2023 which were the ones I quoted. Looks like those ADEQUATE performing workers have made an improvement.

It’s always been quicker if you pay. Private hospitals only take the low risk patients so can turn them around quickly so never a bed issue.

Finally you agree with me. I knew I’d get you there in the end. Private medical care run like a business will always perform better than a bloated, money wasting, non accountable public sector organisation like the NHS. Big question no is how do we change the system to a privately run healthcare system.

 

[big ears]

Finally you agree with me. I knew I’d get you there in the end. Private medical care run like a business will always perform better than a bloated, money wasting, non accountable public sector organisation like the NHS. Big question no is how do we change the system to a privately run healthcare system.

It is if you have the money to pay and only consider elective surgery. Medicine is much bigger than that.

What about trauma? Care of the elderly? Emergency medicine? Cancer treatment? The list goes on. None of this makes money so private companies aren’t interested yet is the services we all rely on much more than simple joint replacements you state.

There is also not the infrastructure in the private sector at the moment. Bed numbers are relatively low. No private company would invest in massive building at present unless it guarantees a return and the capacity needed in the NHS is not that that makes money.

You are also missing the big problem. STAFF. The failure of the nightingales during Covid was the fact that there is not enough trained staff. To expand the private sector you will need staff. These cannot be grown in trees and take years. Who will find this expansion. Not the private sector I wager.

I think you are looking at this from a very narrow stand point which is to privatise everything. A true Tory view point. Their view of the NHS, and indeed any public service is,”why should we pay for it when my mate can make a huge profit from it?”
This is a recipe for disaster.

If you wanted an insurance based health service then a state controlled insurance is the answer. This is an insurance where the state set what the profits from the insurance company are each year and demand a set amount of investment each year not massive dividends for its shareholders. This will over time produce sustained improvements in the service. But sadly there is no quick fix.

I agree the NHS is so broken it is almost impossible to fix. Going down the total private route is not the answer unless you want to exacerbate the “have” and “have not” gap we have in this country look at the health gap in America. This is not something I would want to see.

As a stark reality today we are going over to see a friend and their two children. This is an annual get together down by the river. It is to remember that 12 and 10 years ago both of their children needed heart transplants. A very traumatic time. Their daughter runs s very successful buisiness now paying tax and NI. Their son runs an organic vegetable farm again paying tax and NI.
If this was America after 5 years their anti rejection medicine would not have been funded by their insurance. Their parents would either have had to mortgage themselves to the hilt or watch their children die.
This is the reality of a what you are proposing. Be very carefully what you wish for.

 

[RM100]

Some of this discussion sounds Stalking the NHS!

The Tories have already taken a Vickers machine gun to it.

There are many things wrong with it, the fixes will be painful and government led. The issues that are wrong are to do with the bureaucracy, leadership, management and rubbish targets. The staff are just cannon fodder to the latest political whim, paddling as hard as they can.

Those of you who want a private based system, rejoice! The Tory plan is to destroy the NHS and had over the ruins to their US based ‘healthcare systems’. You will have your wish before long. Once there , of course, you will be paying US grade prices for every GP/A&E hospital visit. To translate into SD-talk, it will be cheaper to go after a brace of grouse than to go to A&E. (The most expensive states for ER visits, ranked).

Labour has a great plan……we just don’t know what it is.

The Great Unwashed are stuck in the middle.

Trust me on this folks, the NHS for all its faults, is our best bet for good sensible healthcare. It just needs to weed out 90% ‘leaders’, ‘managers’ and such-like (replaced like for like with doctor/nurse/HCA) and other similar de-fluffing.

 

[Dazb1967]

Some people join a profession to care for people. Just because you didn't find a place you enjoyed and loved does not mean others are the same.
We have choices in life, maybe you made the wrong choice. That does not mean others have. Some people do care for others in this world. Thank fully.

If you read my other posts you will see that my wife is one of those people who love looking after and caring for people, It's the path she chose but she doesn't do it for nothing, she does it for a living.
I did make the right choice in life at the time because it was something I always wanted to do, I soon realised though it wasn't for me and moved on and this was my choice in life and I have never looked back.
I fully support Junior doctors/Doctors/Nurses/GP's, I lost my mam 12month ago to cancer and currently have a father getting treatment for cancer so I have nothing but respect these people as the level of care they have received was great and my father was treated within days of being diagnosed.
All Im saying is if these people are not happy with the NHS or their working condition and pay then If it was my choice I would move on.

 

[sikamalc]

If you read my other posts you will see that my wife is one of those people who love looking after and caring for people, It's the path she chose but she doesn't do it for nothing, she does it for a living.
I did make the right choice in life at the time because it was something I always wanted to do, I soon realised though it wasn't for me and moved on and this was my choice in life and I have never looked back.
I fully support Junior doctors/Doctors/Nurses/GP's, I lost my mam 12month ago to cancer and currently have a father getting treatment for cancer so I have nothing but respect these people as the level of care they have received was great and my father was treated within days of being diagnosed.
All Im saying is if these people are not happy with the NHS or their working condition and pay then If it was my choice I would move on.

Yes I have a sister just getting over breast cancer.
It affects just about every family.
It's easy to say move onto another job. Easier said than done these days.

 

[RM100]

Yes I have a sister just getting over breast cancer.
It affects just about every family.
It's easy to say move onto another job. Easier said than done these days.

Well said.

Some people have actually moved onto other jobs/countries, hence the gaps in hospital staffing.

Rather than blaming doctors/nurses, why don’t people discuss the role of various Health Secretaries, including one who is presently the chancellor and pretty much ruined the NHS.

 

[Scotty99]

It is if you have the money to pay and only consider elective surgery. Medicine is much bigger than that.

What about trauma? Care of the elderly? Emergency medicine? Cancer treatment? The list goes on. None of this makes money so private companies aren’t interested yet is the services we all rely on much more than simple joint replacements you state.

There is also not the infrastructure in the private sector at the moment. Bed numbers are relatively low. No private company would invest in massive building at present unless it guarantees a return and the capacity needed in the NHS is not that that makes money.

You are also missing the big problem. STAFF. The failure of the nightingales during Covid was the fact that there is not enough trained staff. To expand the private sector you will need staff. These cannot be grown in trees and take years. Who will find this expansion. Not the private sector I wager.

I think you are looking at this from a very narrow stand point which is to privatise everything. A true Tory view point. Their view of the NHS, and indeed any public service is,”why should we pay for it when my mate can make a huge profit from it?”
This is a recipe for disaster.

If you wanted an insurance based health service then a state controlled insurance is the answer. This is an insurance where the state set what the profits from the insurance company are each year and demand a set amount of investment each year not massive dividends for its shareholders. This will over time produce sustained improvements in the service. But sadly there is no quick fix.

I agree the NHS is so broken it is almost impossible to fix. Going down the total private route is not the answer unless you want to exacerbate the “have” and “have not” gap we have in this country look at the health gap in America. This is not something I would want to see.

As a stark reality today we are going over to see a friend and their two children. This is an annual get together down by the river. It is to remember that 12 and 10 years ago both of their children needed heart transplants. A very traumatic time. Their daughter runs s very successful buisiness now paying tax and NI. Their son runs an organic vegetable farm again paying tax and NI.
If this was America after 5 years their anti rejection medicine would not have been funded by their insurance. Their parents would either have had to mortgage themselves to the hilt or watch their children die.
This is the reality of a what you are proposing. Be very carefully what you wish for.

I think you have highlighted the problems and issues with the state funded model (not enough tax take to fund it properly hence all the associated issues) and also the totally privatised model (a split between those that can afford it and those that can‘t). I don’t advocate a totally privatised model but a hybrid one, the state funds the healthcare for those that can’t afford it (disabled, out of work, pensioners), the resulting reduced spend on the NHS will result in significantly lower taxes for individuals and more importantly for companies to enable them to provide group insurance healthcare for their employees. No model is entirely perfect but if we stay as we are we will continue to experience a declining healthcare service that will soon be approaching third world healthcare provision.

 

[mel b3]

Have lived and worked in former parts the British empire I couldn’t agree with you more.

The UK economy is fundamentally broken. There is huge disjoint between those in power, and those on the street.

The general view is that the “great unwashed” are thick, ignorant and should be jolly greatful for the few crumbs they get from the table, and from the opposite side, they are all just a bunch of Tory tossers with silver spoons up their arseholes. And this is further enhanced by media, political parties, unions and management groups.

Yet the vast majority of us are all just trying to the best we can.

But we have absolutely forgotten (or indeed we never had understood) the value of people in businesses, organisations etc.

In the current dispute junior doctors are being treated as a commodity that can be used and consumed in the course of delivering health care.

Management and government are taking the view that they are easily replaced and thus little need to engage in dialogue.

Yet last time I looked most working in health care, whether it nurses, doctors etc are all well trained and educated, and that training takes years. You can’t simply replace them.

Same for industry and business.

Perhaps we should think about people as real assets on the balance sheet. They are the real value in any organisation. And the better they are trained, educated and work together the better the end result.

And when people work together you build collective knowledge that far surpasses anything that is written down or held in the database. This is immediately lost once you start using agency staff, contractors or consultants etc.

But organisations can get too large to manage. NHS is managed as one entity these days, so too are Police and Military. They are run by those who have little clue of the frontline nor what is actually required to deliver good service.

The fundamental role of government is to ensure that the public services on which we all depend and form the underpinning to the country and our economy function. And when they are not functioning you have sit down and work out why. And the only way you can do that is by actually doing the sitting down and talking directly with those concerned.

Yet those in government don’t feel that this is their job.

I completely agree .
In my opinion , from my own personal experience. Things started going wrong , when companies changed from having personel , to having human resources.

 

[Lloyd90]

I think you have highlighted the problems and issues with the state funded model (not enough tax take to fund it properly hence all the associated issues) and also the totally privatised model (a split between those that can afford it and those that can‘t). I don’t advocate a totally privatised model but a hybrid one, the state funds the healthcare for those that can’t afford it (disabled, out of work, pensioners), the resulting reduced spend on the NHS will result in significantly lower taxes for individuals and more importantly for companies to enable them to provide group insurance healthcare for their employees. No model is entirely perfect but if we stay as we are we will continue to experience a declining healthcare service that will soon be approaching third world healthcare provision.

Here’s a genuine question, that really needs to be asked.

Should the state really be funding expensive medical procedures for pensioners?

Should someone who’s 80 years old, be having a hip replacement, then they’re expected to die in the next few years?

Should we be giving people who are 80/90/100 years old, 50+ tablets a day, that is artificially keeping them alive, just so they can sit in a care home with no idea where they are, often distressed and upset, waiting to pass.

I just checked and it says over 55% of NHS budget is spent on the over 85’s.

 

[Heym SR20]

Here’s a genuine question, that really needs to be asked.

Should the state really be funding expensive medical procedures for pensioners?

Should someone who’s 80 years old, be having a hip replacement, then they’re expected to die in the next few years?

Should we be giving people who are 80/90/100 years old, 50+ tablets a day, that is artificially keeping them alive, just so they can sit in a care home with no idea where they are, often distressed and upset, waiting to pass.

I just checked and it says over 55% of NHS budget is spent on the over 85’s.

It comes down to quality of life. My mother who is close to her 80’s had a hip replacement last year. She went from being totally unable to walk to getting her independence back. If she hadn’t had the hip replacement she would have required huge amounts of care and no quality of life.

The rediculous thing was that we ended up paying to have it done by the same surgeon who would have done it via the NHS but there were no slots for 18months. And she went through 18months of pain including two blue light calls when she collapsed and was unable to get up.

If it had been done when it should have been there would have been a much better outcome and much less cost to all.

Having care providers is bloody expensive whether you or the state pay for it. Keeping people fit and healthy with a good quality of life is the key.

My next door neighbour is celebrating his 90th birthday and still at the heart of the local community and his family.

 

[Lloyd90]

It comes down to quality of life. My mother who is close to her 80’s had a hip replacement last year. She went from being totally unable to walk to getting her independence back. If she hadn’t had the hip replacement she would have required huge amounts of care and no quality of life.

The rediculous thing was that we ended up paying to have it done by the same surgeon who would have done it via the NHS but there were no slots for 18months. And she went through 18months of pain including two blue light calls when she collapsed and was unable to get up.

If it had been done when it should have been there would have been a much better outcome and much less cost to all.

Having care providers is bloody expensive whether you or the state pay for it. Keeping people fit and healthy with a good quality of life is the key.

My next door neighbour is celebrating his 90th birthday and still at the heart of the local community and his family.

I’m not on about quality of life.

I’m asking this question, and I fully understand it’s controversial.

Considering the average / mean age of death of a man is a slither over 82 and a woman 85 in the U.K., should we (the tax payer / the nation) be paying for expensive surgery and aftercare for someone in their 80’s and 90’s?

Should we treat people who have cancer in the 80’s and 90’s?

Should there be an age cap on these sorts of things?

I understand that there is a huge difference between humans and animals, but when my 11 year old lab who was coming towards the end of her time got cancer, and the vet wanted to take her whole leg off, I declined and had her PTS. I didn’t see the point in a huge surgery and prolonged recovery for an animal that was coming towards the end of her natural life anyway.

I saw a thread on a different forum recently where the man, despite many saying not to, had his labs leg off around that age. The lab recovered then died of something else about 5-6 months later.

Before anyone gets hysterical, the above isn’t me suggesting we have the elderly “put to sleep” … but you do have to question the idea of giving someone who’s expected to die in the next year or two (ON AVERAGE) a huge surgery like that.




The quality of life argument would apply much more to the question: Should the NHS pay for 50+ pills a day for someone to be basically kept artificially alive who is in a care home with awful physical / mental health?

 

[Lloyd90]

Here’s a study on it…

Should Older Seniors Risk Major Surgery? New Research Offers Guidance

An important new study offers much-needed data to inform older Americans of the risks and benefits they must weigh when facing major surgery.

khn.org

 

[Rasputin]

I’m not on about quality of life.

I’m asking this question, and I fully understand it’s controversial.

Considering the average / mean age of death of a man is a slither over 82 and a woman 85 in the U.K., should we (the tax payer / the nation) be paying for expensive surgery and aftercare for someone in their 80’s and 90’s?

Should we treat people who have cancer in the 80’s and 90’s?

Should there be an age cap on these sorts of things?

I understand that there is a huge difference between humans and animals, but when my 11 year old lab who was coming towards the end of her time got cancer, and the vet wanted to take her whole leg off, I declined and had her PTS. I didn’t see the point in a huge surgery and prolonged recovery for an animal that was coming towards the end of her natural life anyway.

I saw a thread on a different forum recently where the man, despite many saying not to, had his labs leg off around that age. The lab recovered then died of something else about 5-6 months later.

Before anyone gets hysterical, the above isn’t me suggesting we have the elderly “put to sleep” … but you do have to question the idea of giving someone who’s expected to die in the next year or two (ON AVERAGE) a huge surgery like that.




The quality of life argument would apply much more to the question: Should the NHS pay for 50+ pills a day for someone to be basically kept artificially alive who is in a care home with awful physical / mental health?

No they should not it would also ease the pension, public infrastructure and housing burdens. As unpalatable as it is part of the reason the nhs is such a shower is there’s just too many people using it.

Flip side is that an 80 year old today is on par with a 60 year old from days gone by. By the time I’m at retirement age suspect most people will be touching 100 by the time they shuffle off.

 

[Heym SR20]

I’m not on about quality of life.

I’m asking this question, and I fully understand it’s controversial.

Considering the average / mean age of death of a man is a slither over 82 and a woman 85 in the U.K., should we (the tax payer / the nation) be paying for expensive surgery and aftercare for someone in their 80’s and 90’s?

Should we treat people who have cancer in the 80’s and 90’s?

Should there be an age cap on these sorts of things?

I understand that there is a huge difference between humans and animals, but when my 11 year old lab who was coming towards the end of her time got cancer, and the vet wanted to take her whole leg off, I declined and had her PTS. I didn’t see the point in a huge surgery and prolonged recovery for an animal that was coming towards the end of her natural life anyway.

I saw a thread on a different forum recently where the man, despite many saying not to, had his labs leg off around that age. The lab recovered then died of something else about 5-6 months later.

Before anyone gets hysterical, the above isn’t me suggesting we have the elderly “put to sleep” … but you do have to question the idea of giving someone who’s expected to die in the next year or two (ON AVERAGE) a huge surgery like that.




The quality of life argument would apply much more to the question: Should the NHS pay for 50+ pills a day for someone to be basically kept artificially alive who is in a care home with awful physical / mental health?

There are already well established protocols that measure cost of treatment against expected outcomes and this is taken into account all the time. But it is done on a case by case basis.

And fundamentally we all are or should be funding our healthcare provision through our National Insurance and Taxes. As younger members of society we pay in a lot into the system, which then should fund our healthcare and care needs when we are elderly.

Most of the drugs prescribed are generics and really are low cost. Some of course are much more expensive.

I suppose of those who drink and smoke to excess and put a big burden on the NHS would argue that they paid in a lot.

We also must not loose sight of the fact that it only takes one little virus or accident to render us pretty much incapable of doing very much and needing a huge amount of assistance.

 

[big ears]

I think you have highlighted the problems and issues with the state funded model (not enough tax take to fund it properly hence all the associated issues) and also the totally privatised model (a split between those that can afford it and those that can‘t). I don’t advocate a totally privatised model but a hybrid one, the state funds the healthcare for those that can’t afford it (disabled, out of work, pensioners), the resulting reduced spend on the NHS will result in significantly lower taxes for individuals and more importantly for companies to enable them to provide group insurance healthcare for their employees. No model is entirely perfect but if we stay as we are we will continue to experience a declining healthcare service that will soon be approaching third world healthcare provision.

Whilst this is a nice proposal the flaw us your belief it will lower taxes significantly. That is I’m afraid cloud cuckoo land.

What you haven’t factored in is social care. You are still only thinking about waiting lists and operations.

It is so much more and complex.