Latest article on lead micro and nano particles in deer and grouse

[jimmer.13]

FFS this thread really shows up that we have a really nasty completely narrow minded bunch of bullies. I would hope that eventually the police when reviewing social media as part of licensing checks will take a dim view on their constant impetuous behaviour.

The Stalking Directory is up for sale as the administrator’s are dealing with bigger issues than a bunch of school boy bullies constantly trolling threads. You know who you are and you should hang your heads in shame.

But I very much doubt you will, because you that type of person.

I will ask @admin to close this thread forthwith because I have had enough of your direct abuse.

And I claim my £5

 

[Heym SR20]

And I claim my £5

Says it all really.

 

[jimmer.13]

Says it all really.

Yay …. I thought you’d ignored me chap.
Good to see your not dismissing healthy debate and opposing views.
It’s banter pal… offence is an individuals problem and often only taken…. Very rarely given. .
I bare no malice. Lighten up fella you never know what tomorrow may bring

 

[Chris Richardson]

FFS this thread really shows up that we have a really nasty completely narrow minded bunch of bullies. I would hope that eventually the police when reviewing social media as part of licensing checks will take a dim view on their constant impetuous behaviour.

The Stalking Directory is up for sale as the administrator’s are dealing with bigger issues than a bunch of school boy bullies constantly trolling threads. You know who you are and you should hang your heads in shame.

But I very much doubt you will, because you that type of person.

I will ask @admin to close this thread forthwith because I have had enough of your direct abuse.

I’d

FFS this thread really shows up that we have a really nasty completely narrow minded bunch of bullies. I would hope that eventually the police when reviewing social media as part of licensing checks will take a dim view on their constant impetuous behaviour.

The Stalking Directory is up for sale as the administrator’s are dealing with bigger issues than a bunch of school boy bullies constantly trolling threads. You know who you are and you should hang your heads in shame.

But I very much doubt you will, because you that type of person.

I will ask @admin to close this thread forthwith because I have had enough of your direct abuse.

ah the victim card lovely

 

[Apthorpe]

There seems to be a freedom of speech issue here. Someone posts threads making a series of false and spurious claims in support of legislation to significantly disadvantage other members, and then demands threads be shut down whenever other members correct the record, and the disinformation they’ve posted is thoroughly debunked.

I think that throwing the toys out of the pram, demanding threads be closed and so on is very poor behaviour, whoever is doing it. This isn’t the only thread where pro-lead ban people have made false claims, made incorrect allegations about other people and their comments, and then demanded to have the thread shut down or deleted. I think one might find impetuous, narrow-minded bullying a little closer to home than is comfortable.

 

[Apthorpe]

PS I’m still trying to work out the meaning of @Heym SR20 ’s reference to “nano-sized partridge” in the OP. Has anyone ever seen, heard of or shot one? I’m a poor partridge shot, although over covey species less so.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

FFS this thread really shows up that we have a really nasty completely narrow minded bunch of bullies. I would hope that eventually the police when reviewing social media as part of licensing checks will take a dim view on their constant impetuous behaviour.

The Stalking Directory is up for sale as the administrator’s are dealing with bigger issues than a bunch of school boy bullies constantly trolling threads. You know who you are and you should hang your heads in shame.

But I very much doubt you will, because you that type of person.

I will ask @admin to close this thread forthwith because I have had enough of your direct abuse.

What you have to realise is, there is a very vast amount of people who don’t support or care about the lead ban and they see BASC as the root cause.

I don’t personally agree with the banning of lead, it’s a decision that has been taken away from me and I don’t like it.

If the lead ban should get kicked into touch, I’ll happily go back to using copper until then ive dug my trench and preparing to repel borders in the lead camp

 

[Smellydog]

I don't understand @Heym SR20 .

He wants free speech shutdown because of bullies!
All I see is critics and questions.

Then he announced that he hopes some get investigated by the authorities. He seeks menace's for fellow hunters that choose freedom of choice and oppose dictatorial mantra!

Has Sir Kier Starma got a brother we didn't know of?
Talk about the traitor in our midst.....
You sir are a tyranny towards any form of freedom.

 

[Woodenbeam]

I’d say steady on all parties………
We don’t need threads shutting down or even worse deleted completely.
Apthorpe well debated on your part, completely above my pay grade but Buchan & yourself seemed to be having fun………
& I think you came out top
Quite emotive yet again this lead issue but we should all try to stay some where on topic, look to take the moral high ground even

 

[Dunwaters]

No reply how odd

so still wont answer how you can make the comparison of the effectiveness of copper vs lead ? still wont answer if youve eaten lead shot game or why a year ago you were happy to feed it to your family ? thought not thank you

I’ll give it a lash, but you probably won’t like it.
I’ve always used lead up to around 3 years ago, I bought 140 factory copper Sako rounds in 2 calibres. I have about 40 left, most of them were fired at deer, I didn’t hit them all, but I didn’t have to double up either and frankly I find them better than most lead loads I’ve tried. Shots have been from point blanc to over 300M . Carcass damage is significantly less than with the Hornady SST’s I was using and I almost always get full penetration. The one copper bullet I recovered retained virtually 100% of its weight. The SST’s regularly lost over half their weight and I pulled a fair few jackets with a separated core lodged against the skin on the offside.
So far I haven’t found a downside to copper for deer, they’re accurate and they work.
I tried bismuth recently, again no complaints re performance, but they are expensive
I haven’t shot them enough to make a decision yet, but so far, no complaints.
A couple of weeks ago I got talking to a semi retired deer culler, he shoots hundreds of deer per annum with a .270 and copper loads.
Strangely enough, his recipe is almost identical to mine, so is his experience.
Make of it what you may, but if copper works well enough for game that professionals are using It, it works well enough.

 

[tackb]

Make of it what you may, but if copper works well enough for game that professionals are using It, it works well enough.

I don’t know anyone who changed un forced ? And personally I don’t like well enough I prefer the best

 

[GlennUK]

I see you have no expertise in ballistics, you're an enthusiastic amateur.

It is funny that you make statements about facts.

Factually lead is harmful
Factually lead is an cumulative poison, meaning any lead you ingest will add to that burden.
Factually lead is accumulated from many sources.
Where the poisoning is chronic then you may not recognise the effects.

To say that its ok to ingest lead because you (anyone else) hasn't been harmed is no different to arguing that any other carcinogenic substance e.g. asbestos, UV, tobacco smoke, hasn't harmed me because haven't got cancer. You cannot know one way or the other if or when cancer may arise and as for many of the other effects of lead poisoning, you may not recognise the cause for what it is.

Is increasing your lead burden likely to be beneficial? The medical and scientific evidence available suggests otherwise, but of course is a matter for individuals

If you think this is controversial then there is no hope for you.

Frankly there is no factual dispute to counter these arguments, the only argument you have that stands any reasoning is that you accept the risks.

 

[GlennUK]

Just out of interest @GlennUK what brand of lead free ammo do you shoot, or is it home loaded?

I have been using nosler 120gr softtip

 

[GlennUK]

I was wrong about you being a teacher, you’re a lawyer/barrister.

No school would tolerate your constant misrepresentations and your tactic of concentrating on fragments of arguments taken out of context.

Hes not a barrister or lawyer, no barrister or lawyer would make the comments he is making on the harmful effects of lead given the evidence..

 

[GlennUK]

This is getting all vey boring now same too and fro anyway onto a match Brighter note tomorrow I’m off to Essex to **** some fallow with some lead #fallow-jihad

well im sure youll find plenty to shoot, whatever you use.

 

[GlennUK]

Re the lead contamination in people who do eat/do not eat game shot with lead.

I don't doubt that there is a lead contamination problem in some people. There are many studies done which confirm this but they do not identify where the lead came from. Only that it was there. In Oz in 2002 [UK 1999] lead in fuel was banned. Which means most of us have grown up breathing in lead from the atmosphere which came from car exhausts. What car based lead wasn't vented into the atmosphere fell onto the roads, when it rained this lead was washed into the water ways and eventually into those impoundments which supplied both rural and city folk with drinking water. Then there was lead based paint. All the houses...inside and out..., the furniture, the kitchens, kids toys etc were all painted with lead based paint. How much lead did I chew through as a toddler munching on my lead painted wooden cot. Inner city kids had high lead levels but they didn't eat lead shot game. Over time some lead will dissipate from peoples bodies but equally some will remain for all time.

Its a reasonable preposition to argue that our accumulation lead arises form many source

 

[Chris Richardson]

I see you have no expertise in ballistics, you're an enthusiastic amateur.

It is funny that you make statements about facts.

Factually lead is harmful
Factually lead is an cumulative poison, meaning any lead you ingest will add to that burden.
Factually lead is accumulated from many sources.
Where the poisoning is chronic then you may not recognise the effects.

To say that its ok to ingest lead because you (anyone else) hasn't been harmed is no different to arguing that any other carcinogenic substance e.g. asbestos, UV, tobacco smoke, hasn't harmed me because haven't got cancer. You cannot know one way or the other if or when cancer may arise and as for many of the other effects of lead poisoning, you may not recognise the cause for what it is.

Is increasing your lead burden likely to be beneficial? The medical and scientific evidence available suggests otherwise, but of course is a matter for individuals

If you think this is controversial then there is no hope for you.

Frankly there is no factual dispute to counter these arguments, the only argument you have that stands any reasoning is that you accept the risks.

Why were you willing to accept the risks 12 months ago but not now ?

 

[GlennUK]

I hesitate to go much further on this, being perhaps beyond the scope of some readers, but there are other differences which you may not have appreciated. Organolead compounds are (I think nearly, all) tetravalent, rather than the divalent inorganic ionic form you're focussing on, and are therefore chemically different. They further tend to be highly lipophilic making them much more easily able to cross membranes such as the blood-brain barrier, and they tend to have much weaker bond energies, making them more reactive, and therefore more toxic.

In lay terms, lead ammunition being metallic is at the lower end of spectrum of toxicity related to lead, lead compounds like found in paint are very much more toxic; lead compounds inhaled are very much more toxic than those, and organolead compounds such as found in leaded petrol further orders of magnitude more toxic. What pro-lead ban supporters have been doing is to ignore this spectrum. If the substance in question was nitro powder, the analogous argument would be that ammunition is dangerous because firing a single rifle cartridge is so explosive as to destroy half a street. They fail to understand the science.

What you're saying is that lead in metallic form is less harmful than some lead compounds. but not harmless. its at the lower end of the spectrum of toxicity.

Why were you willing to accept the risks 12 months ago but not now ?

if you can find anything relevant to say......

 

[Dunwaters]

I don’t know anyone who changed un forced ? And personally I don’t like well enough I prefer the best

You know of someone now, I wasn’t forced to change, I chose to. Granted, the decision to change was informed by what was going on in both the EU and Britain.
As for lead being “ best”, for shooting deer it’s definitely not. I weighed a 140Gr SST I recovered, it weighed 70Gr and the lead core had separated. Where do you think that lost lead ended up? In comparison a copper bullet I took out of a red stag is complete, the tip folded back in 4 petals doubling diameter, perfect performance and energy transfer.
You may be happy to consume meat unnecessarily contaminated with lead, I no longer am.

 

[jimmer.13]

The assault on lead ammunition is skewed.
Sceptics would say it’s another direct attack to do away with shooting and privately owned firearms. I believe this to be true.
We have debated the possibility of lead ammunition being harmful when eating quarry shot with lead.
The evidence is spurious on both sides of the coin but I rely on the best and efficient product for my work. Hence I sit in the pro lead camp.
My push back against the contaminated food argument is why is it that only wild game shot with lead is under attack and under scrutiny.
After a conversation yesterday I did a quick google and it shows many food sources containing traces of lead.
It even says so on the packaging.
Spices, baby food, root vegetables it’s quite an extensive list.
I was informed Waitrose sell over 15 different food products with packaging that states may contain lead.
Why constantly attack shooting and why are some shooters hell bent on restricting shooting even more?