Le High Defense Copper Chaos bullets

[the_greenman]

I've been experimenting with the lead free options in my 6.5CM (along with growing a ponytail, wearing flax slippers and drinking soy milk - isn't that what's expected of a Creedmoor owner on here??).
Below are some of the results I've had so far. The bullets I have used are the 122gr Le High Defense Copper Chaos, a fragmenting design. Put over 44.5gr of RL16 and out of my 20inch Tikka barrel gave me an average of 2890fps.
I've only shot 10 deer with them to date. 5x Roe (4x under 50m and instant drops to neck or heart/lung shots, 1x 100m heart/lung which ran 20m and dropped). Those that were heart/lung shot displayed almost jellified hearts after being hit and pieces of lung had been found sticking out of the exit hole and even poking through the diaphragm. Exit holes were small perhaps twice that of entry point and damage was pretty much confined to the organs with no great breaking of ribs etc.
The 5x Fallow I've shot have been 3 neck shots and 2 heart/lung at 50m and 80m respectively. The 50m buck managed to travel 10 feet before collapsing and the 80m doe dropped on the spot. The gralloch on both of these animals showed different bullet behaviour to the Roe. Both were absolutely side on to me and stationary. The hearts on both were totally destroyed but in both animals small copper petal fragments were found in the haunches. Exit holes were no bigger than those on the Roe.
I have got a handful left of the loaded Le Highs and while they appear to do what's on the tin, I think non fragmenting bullets may well be the way forward. In the last 2 Fallow it was as if a grenade had gone off in the chest cavity sending copper slivers at an oblique angle. Interested to hear if anybody else has experience of these bullets?

 

[wild boar]

Thank for the write up, it was very useful as I was thinking of trying them, you mention non fragmenting could be the way forward, have you tried any ?

 

[the_greenman]

Thank for the write up, it was very useful as I was thinking of trying them, you mention non fragmenting could be the way forward, have you tried any ?

Currently trying Fox bullets. Asked Edinburgh Rifles for load data. Early days but others report good results.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

To me it sounds like the lighter "copper" projectiles needing higher velocities to force the front tip to expand on contact have hit very hard with its retained velocity at 80m causing more hydrostatic damage internally than a slower lead based projectile would and due to the velocity have passed through the deer before being able to expand fully, hence the small exit holes. Not scientific I know, just my gut feeling.

 

[the_greenman]

To me it sounds like the lighter "copper" projectiles needing higher velocities to force the front tip to expand on contact have hit very hard with its retained velocity at 80m causing more hydrostatic damage internally than a slower lead based projectile would and due to the velocity have passed through the deer before being able to expand fully, hence the small exit holes. Not scientific I know, just my gut feeling.

But the petals had seperated suggesting over expansion (which I guess a fragmenting bullet is meant to do), just didn't expect them to travel the length of the animal.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

But the petals had seperated suggesting over expansion (which I guess a fragmenting bullet is meant to do), just didn't expect them to travel the length of the animal.

When they break off from the main projectile body that is spinning around 280,000rpm that might be the cause.

 

[palmer_mike]

But the petals had seperated suggesting over expansion (which I guess a fragmenting bullet is meant to do), just didn't expect them to travel the length of the animal.

Reading the published information on these bullets it seems that they are designed to fragment as they did. Possibly of use against varmints but not something i would like to use on creatures I intend to eat……

 

[the_greenman]

Reading the published information on these bullets it seems that they are designed to fragment as they did. Possibly of use against varmints but not something i would like to use on creatures I intend to eat……

Exactly my thoughts. I wasn't really aware of just how much fragmentation was going to take place with non lead projectiles. The youtube vids into gel usually show the petals not far from the wound track so I was expecting the organs to contain them but they clearly travel! Hence why I've now pulled them all.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

They are called “Copper Chaos”….
Surely the clue is in the name?..

If you don’t anneal pure copper bullets after machining you get brittle bullets.
My take on the non lead move is not environmental it is primarily meat quality.
To that end ANY metal fragments in the carcase is a negative.

Bullets that expand and retain original mass are the way to achieve a clean AND metal free carcase

 

[wild boar]

Currently trying Fox bullets. Asked Edinburgh Rifles for load data. Early days but others report good results.

Thanks, the write up about them looks good, I think I will give them a try

 

[the_greenman]

Thanks, the write up about them looks good, I think I will give them a try

Yes, only shot 1 roe doe with the Fox bullet so far but it was back of head at 40m while it was lying down, so not really a test of it's performance.

 

[wild boar]

Yes, only shot 1 roe doe with the Fox bullet so far but it was back of head at 40m while it was lying down, so not really a test of it's performance.

What bullet weight are you using, I need them for Sika/red and possibly Roe,

 

[the_greenman]

What bullet weight are you using, I need them for Sika/red and possibly Roe,

123gr fox

 

[Acm]

123gr fox

I’ve used 80 or so of these on deer but out of my 6.5swede. You’ll not have any problems, really good bullets. I shot 60 fallow or so ranging from 40 to 250 metres and the rest were roe with a couple of muntys.
My load achieved a fairly modest 2708 fps. Never retrieved a bullet. Didn’t have time to reload so bought a hundred factory rounds a few months ago but will go back to the fox quite happily.
Also used them in 45grn in my .222 and they were a good foxing round. Have since gone back to a cheaper lead bullet for that though.

 

[the_greenman]

I’ve used 80 or so of these on deer but out of my 6.5swede. You’ll not have any problems, really good bullets. I shot 60 fallow or so ranging from 40 to 250 metres and the rest were roe with a couple of muntys.
My load achieved a fairly modest 2708 fps. Never retrieved a bullet. Didn’t have time to reload so bought a hundred factory rounds a few months ago but will go back to the fox quite happily.
Also used them in 45grn in my .222 and they were a good foxing round. Have since gone back to a cheaper lead bullet for that though.

Good to hear that. Thank you.

 

[wild boar]

I’ve used 80 or so of these on deer but out of my 6.5swede. You’ll not have any problems, really good bullets. I shot 60 fallow or so ranging from 40 to 250 metres and the rest were roe with a couple of muntys.
My load achieved a fairly modest 2708 fps. Never retrieved a bullet. Didn’t have time to reload so bought a hundred factory rounds a few months ago but will go back to the fox quite happily.
Also used them in 45grn in my .222 and they were a good foxing round. Have since gone back to a cheaper lead bullet for that though.

Thanks for the info, it looks like they are worth trying, I am using a 6.5 swede what powder and load did you use ?

 

[Acm]

Imr 4451, cci primer and lapua brass.
I don’t recall the charge

 

[wild boar]

Imr 4451, cci primer and lapua brass.
I don’t recall the charge

Thanks

 

[2Ll’s]

I've been experimenting with the lead free options in my 6.5CM (along with growing a ponytail, wearing flax slippers and drinking soy milk - isn't that what's expected of a Creedmoor owner on here??).
Below are some of the results I've had so far. The bullets I have used are the 122gr Le High Defense Copper Chaos, a fragmenting design. Put over 44.5gr of RL16 and out of my 20inch Tikka barrel gave me an average of 2890fps.
I've only shot 10 deer with them to date. 5x Roe (4x under 50m and instant drops to neck or heart/lung shots, 1x 100m heart/lung which ran 20m and dropped). Those that were heart/lung shot displayed almost jellified hearts after being hit and pieces of lung had been found sticking out of the exit hole and even poking through the diaphragm. Exit holes were small perhaps twice that of entry point and damage was pretty much confined to the organs with no great breaking of ribs etc.
The 5x Fallow I've shot have been 3 neck shots and 2 heart/lung at 50m and 80m respectively. The 50m buck managed to travel 10 feet before collapsing and the 80m doe dropped on the spot. The gralloch on both of these animals showed different bullet behaviour to the Roe. Both were absolutely side on to me and stationary. The hearts on both were totally destroyed but in both animals small copper petal fragments were found in the haunches. Exit holes were no bigger than those on the Roe.
I have got a handful left of the loaded Le Highs and while they appear to do what's on the tin, I think non fragmenting bullets may well be the way forward. In the last 2 Fallow it was as if a grenade had gone off in the chest cavity sending copper slivers at an oblique angle. Interested to hear if anybody else has experience of these bullets?

I have used the Nosler e tip 120grain on 2 roe and 3 muntjac and all have had an exit wound about 2” with no fragmentation in the carcass at all, 4 dropped on the spot, 1 roe ran about 15 yards, no bullets retrieved though to see expansion yet.

 

[2Ll’s]

I have used the Nosler e tip 120grain in my CM on 2 roe and 3 muntjac and all have had an exit wound about 2” with no fragmentation in the carcass at all, 4 dropped on the spot, 1 roe ran about 15 yards, no bullets retrieved though to see expansion yet.