Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[VSS]

... Heck, my headmaster at school happily countersigned my first application for a shotgun certificate, Mr Voller. Can you imagine a lad going into school and asking for such a thing today? 99% of them would end up being psychologically assessed.

Yes, I can imagine it.
Not a lad, either.
It wasn't many years ago that my daughter's headmaster countersigned her FAC application.

 

[Smellydog]

Can someone direct me to some copper bullets ( not ammunition ) for my 3030 please?
I can't find any.

 

[timbrayford]

I remember BASC being supportive of all the marches from that era. There was a badge for the 1998 one as per image below. Not sure who made that one but I remember a BASC badge back in the day that said "I shoot, hunt and vote"

Its important to draw a distinction between "Official" positions of an organisation and that very position being undermined by senior officials and ex-senior officials of that organisation. e.g. Guest blog – Lead ammunition, the way forward by John Swift – Mark Avery

 

[Sol]

i use 68 gr bullets in my 243 for fox, which i believe is being banned, but i can use a 68 gr bullet in my 22.250 223rem to do the same job on fox it doesnt make sense, so my 243 is redundant any compensation for it and reloading gear, this country is a p*ss take bsView attachment 428075

I'm surprised they didnt blanket ban everything live quarry related with lead TBH (besides ones that are near impossible e.g 22lr)

 

[kenbro]

No surprise who decided on my behalf!
KB.

 

[Fishpond]

Because if it says "May contain fragments of sharp copper shards" or "May contain quantities of small iron ball bearings" she'll now happily put it in her basket won't she? Some either live in ivory towers or in cloud cuckoo land IMHO.

And the first story of broken teeth from steel shot and the first piggyback claim "where's there's blame there's a cash payout" compensation case for such against a supermarket and steel shot gamebirds are off the shelves for good.

That's if she hasn't feinted at the price of the vension in the first place......

 

[Smellydog]

"the polluter pays" some dam fool uttered...

So how come a chap can not launch lead from his 243 but must pay for his choice after being penalised, not by his fellow shooting associates but by virtue signalling anti hunting and bias non free world government that don't govern but oppress minorities but his buddy next to him with his 223 can and not have to pay for his choice?
Why will it possibly be ok to shoot 40gn 22's by the millions into mother earth but not potentially 17gn bullets?

When folk shove virtue poles up there rump whether it be for selfrighteous reasons like lets rid the world of disease or look at me I'm so politically correct type, apart from sounding stupid they actually elevate themselves in their tiny little minds above everyone else. Almost with the same disdain as though they just stepped in something foul!
Where do you type obtain this air of superiority from? Is it expensive? Does it come in tablet form or liquid? Do you take it orally or shove it up your azz?

Well I've got something to say to you.
Clear off with rapid forward jerking, you are not my overlords, you miserable control freaks are made of and stink of the same **** as me.
When I'm on my death bed writhing in agony or possibly not, at least I will smile and think how I didn't roll over and show my belly to oppression, how I wasn't content to allow big brother to decide everything for me, how I didn't discourage others from shooting, how I didn't fill their minds with fear and how I didn't make myself out to be a complete deluded arrogant **** of a man by seeking pleasure from seeing others lose their freedom of choice.

Bloody anchor's.

 

[Chris Richardson]

If you can’t find your study, maybe it is time to get off the alcohol. But, since it’s not banned, it must be perfectly good for you, right?

I think you misunderstand me sir , there’s far greater problems out there than lead ( alcohol for one ) why aren’t we banning them ? Oh yes because they’re not a backdoor attack on shooting which most are too simple to see , and as regards the study I asked @Heymsr20 to find me any evidence of people becoming ill from eating lead shot game , oddly he’s never replied yet the studys On alcohol are there for all to see ….

 

[Chris Richardson]

No surprise who decided on my behalf!
KB.

But I thought it was a denocratic org ???

 

[Sol]

"the polluter pays" some dam fool uttered...

So how come a chap can not launch lead from his 243 but must pay for his choice after being penalised, not by his fellow shooting associates but by virtue signalling anti hunting and bias non free world government that don't govern but oppress minorities but his buddy next to him with his 223 can and not have to pay for his choice?
Why will it possibly be ok to shoot 40gn 22's by the millions into mother earth but not potentially 17gn bullets?

When folk shove virtue poles up there rump whether it be for selfrighteous reasons like lets rid the world of disease or look at me I'm so politically correct type, apart from sounding stupid they actually elevate themselves in their tiny little minds above everyone else. Almost with the same disdain as though they just stepped in something foul!
Where do you type obtain this air of superiority from? Is it expensive? Does it come in tablet form or liquid? Do you take it orally or shove it up your azz?

Well I've got something to say to you.
Clear off with rapid forward jerking, you are not my overlords, you miserable control freaks are made of and stink of the same **** as me.
When I'm on my death bed writhing in agony or possibly not, at least I will smile and think how I didn't roll over and show my belly to oppression, how I wasn't content to allow big brother to decide everything for me, how I didn't discourage others from shooting, how I didn't fill their minds with fear and how I didn't make myself out to be a complete deluded arrogant **** of a man by seeking pleasure from seeing others lose their freedom of choice.

Bloody anchor's.

Shotguns are the major polluter by far centerfire rifles 204+ are hardly a thing to worry about In the grand scheme of things, If someone's shooting about 100 deer a year on an estate that's about 0.7kg of lead (110gr) down range but with how lead usually splinters into the carcass Its likely to be even less, and on bigger species like reds and vice-versa a pass through every time Is pretty unlikely.

So what, your looking at about 0.4-0.6kg worth of lead in the environment.
Where shotguns without a doubt can shoot 20-30x that amount in a single day with literally no care If there missing or where Its going, for weeks on end during pheasant season.
It makes a lot of sense.... no hate to shotgun users but If anything's going to be prohibited It really should of started with shotguns, and shotguns only.

And at least shotguns have a quite a nice selection of steel options since shotguns are well... a lot more universal (although I'm very aware some shotguns are lead, and lead only and fire steel terribly)

 

[timbrayford]

Shotguns are the major polluter by far centerfire rifles 204+ are hardly a thing to worry about In the grand scheme of things, If someone's shooting about 100 deer a year on an estate that's about 0.7kg of lead (110gr) down range but with how lead usually splinters into the carcass Its likely to be even less, and on bigger species like reds and vice-versa a pass through every time Is pretty unlikely.

So what, your looking at about 0.4-0.6kg worth of lead in the environment.
Where shotguns without a doubt can shoot 20-30x that amount in a single day with literally no care If there missing or where Its going, for weeks on end during pheasant season.
It makes a lot of sense.... no hate to shotgun users but If anything's going to be prohibited It really should of started with shotguns, and shotguns only.

And at least shotguns have a quite a nice selection of steel options since shotguns are well... a lot more universal (although I'm very aware some shotguns are lead, and lead only and fire steel terribly)

Non-lead options are not freely available, especially for anything smaller than 12 bore

 

[Smellydog]

Shotguns are the major polluter by far centerfire rifles 204+ are hardly a thing to worry about In the grand scheme of things, If someone's shooting about 100 deer a year on an estate that's about 0.7kg of lead (110gr) down range but with how lead usually splinters into the carcass Its likely to be even less, and on bigger species like reds and vice-versa a pass through every time Is pretty unlikely.

So what, your looking at about 0.4-0.6kg worth of lead in the environment.
Where shotguns without a doubt can shoot 20-30x that amount in a single day with literally no care If there missing or where Its going, for weeks on end during pheasant season.
It makes a lot of sense.... no hate to shotgun users but If anything's going to be prohibited It really should of started with shotguns, and shotguns only.

And at least shotguns have a quite a nice selection of steel options since shotguns are well... a lot more universal (although I'm very aware some shotguns are lead, and lead only and fire steel terribly)

I get you drift and will agree to some degree. The way pheasant shooting has become commercialised is the real issue in my opinion.
By all means place a restriction but not a blanket ruling. Allow for the small bore and black powder muzzleloaders. Why should they pay for the activity of others?

 

[JTO]

Heck, my headmaster at school happily countersigned my first application for a shotgun certificate, Mr Voller. Can you imagine a lad going into school and asking for such a thing today? 99% of them would end up being psychologically assessed.

I walked into a Post Office and bought my first Gun Licence in 1961 for 10/-, joined W.G.B.I. in 1963/4(should have bought a life membership!), F.A.C. in 1968.

 

[Tim.243]

Shotguns are the major polluter by far centerfire rifles 204+ are hardly a thing to worry about In the grand scheme of things, If someone's shooting about 100 deer a year on an estate that's about 0.7kg of lead (110gr) down range but with how lead usually splinters into the carcass Its likely to be even less, and on bigger species like reds and vice-versa a pass through every time Is pretty unlikely.

So what, your looking at about 0.4-0.6kg worth of lead in the environment.
Where shotguns without a doubt can shoot 20-30x that amount in a single day with literally no care If there missing or where Its going, for weeks on end during pheasant season.
It makes a lot of sense.... no hate to shotgun users but If anything's going to be prohibited It really should of started with shotguns, and shotguns only.

And at least shotguns have a quite a nice selection of steel options since shotguns are well... a lot more universal (although I'm very aware some shotguns are lead, and lead only and fire steel terribly)

My "old" .410 was given to my Dad in 1934 by his Dad, it will get used up until the ban and that is it as it is fine with a Eley 2 1/2" but that will be the last box I use.
I use steel for ducks, but this will result in a huge increase in the numbers of Crows/Rooks/Pigeons as people will simply give up shooting them, not so much the younger generation who tbh will use steel just to get the shooting as the older lads will stop earlier. However that relationship/experience will be missed by those who relied on that "service" for 40+ years in some cases.
In general plastic wads are used in steel so close to this new government scheme of 1-1 migrants you will have fibre wads swapped plastic ones.

 

[Red Dragon 2]

Well that means two shotguns will be useless, one a damascus twist barrels and the other a Winchester model 59 semi auto with the winlite barrels, the other two are not steel shot proofed as too old so restricted to ordinary steel shot cartridges.
PS do 17 hmr come under the small calbre rule?

 

[countrryboy]

@Conor O'Gorman firstly thank you for all your continued hard work. The voluntary phase out of lead from field sports put forward a few years ago has prepared the way forward. There are plenty of good viable alternatives. BASC, GWCY etc are all membership organisations and frankly if the membership where unhappy with direction of travel they would have voted those running the organisations.

It is disappointing that the Game Dealers have not continued with their lead free approach. We all want much wider consumption of game meat, but unless and until the market has absolute confidence that it is free from toxic contamination, and contains a warning about lead shot or fragments, no buyer for a school kitchen will ever sign off on game meat being served. Venison prices are at an all time low, so much so I suspect many carcasses are just being dumped.

However stalking has much much bigger issues in Scotland. Frankly the way things are going it will academic whether or not a 243 can shoot copper bullets. In many parts deer numbers are now vastly reduced, so much so that many, many estates are no longer offering let stalking and having to cancel overseas clients because they have no deer to offer.

But you are completely overlooking the commercial markets. Commercial buyers such supermarkets, restaurant chains, public sector will not run the risk of putting game products into the market when they contain lead. The few that do will put warning label about the risks of lead on the packet.

So Mrs Housewife who has read about, or seen on Masterchef venison being cooked. Following day in the supermarket she sees and picks up some venison steaks - all healthy, good nutritious meat according to everything she has read and heard. Then she reads the warning label about the dangers of lead and potential harm to children.

Puts packet of venison back on shelf and picks up some intensively reared pork or chicken product instead.

One potential customer and advocate for shooting wild game lost.

The venison industry has been shooting itself its own foot for last upteen years. Lead used to be commonly used to solder cans of meat and fish closed. This was prohibited over 60 years ago. Yet we still think its perfect OK to contaminate a beautiful free range meat product with one of the most harmful metals known to man.

Have a read of the proceedings in Parliament from 1961 on lead in every day foodstuffs. Linked below.

In those days if you survived more than a year or two after retirement at 65 you were considered to have done well. Now we expect to live into our 80’s.

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1961-11-30/debates/67290903-dcad-432f-81a7-d31974c5ec70/LeadInFood

Heym do u honestly think their is a massive untapped market of folk desperate to eat game out there only stopped by lead??

And yet they likely eat this ultra processed foods, smoke, vape or drink or even use mobile phones or have wifi in their house.
Its a complete nonsense to think ingested lead shot is a significant health risk in this day and age.


If only a game dealer thought of that and went on their own only buying game shot with non toxic shot.
Would have the whole game market all to themselves.
Charge premium prices, hell they could even actually pay estates a fair price for their birds ( instead of taking them for free or even charging to take birds and still selling for same amount)

1 of the big shoots i picked up on went non toxic a few years ago on order from the game dealer.
Was going to refuse to take birds if they never went non toxic
So its very easy to do if their was a market and a benefit.

I will say wounding rates were shocking. Birds coming down very hard and just getting up and running or diving and bleeding very heavily too. Ur waistcoat was always covered in blood.
Ive seen and know folk ( mainly fowlers) shoot and kill very cleanly with steel. But they were good shots and homeloaded shells so going faster than factory loads.
From wot i seen on that shoot really not looking forward to being forced onto steel shot.
If it carries on like that i might have a decision to make as those wounding ratrs will get shooting stopped pretty quick

From wot ive seen factory steel is far less forgiving to poor or average shots

 

[Smellydog]

do 17 hmr come under the small calbre rule

Bloody hope so and I'm waiting too.

 

[JTO]

I will say wounding rates were shocking. Birds coming down very hard and just getting up and running or diving and bleeding very heavily too. Ur waistcoat was always covered in blood.

If it carries on like that i might have a decision to make as those wounding ratrs will get shooting stopped pretty quick

The anticipated wounding rates was something that the DTI rep brought up at the Cheltenham Wildfowling Conference, before lead was banned for wildfowling.
He thought the RSPCA would be concerned.
He also said that shooting people, and their representatives, were wasting their time opposing a ban, because it was going to happen anyway!

 

[Smellydog]

Heym do u honestly think their is a massive untapped market of folk desperate to eat game out there only stopped by lead??

And yet they likely eat this ultra processed foods, smoke, vape or drink or even use mobile phones or have wifi in their house.
Its a complete nonsense to think ingested lead shot is a significant health risk in this day and age.


If only a game dealer thought of that and went on their own only buying game shot with non toxic shot.
Would have the whole game market all to themselves.
Charge premium prices, hell they could even actually pay estates a fair price for their birds ( instead of taking them for free or even charging to take birds and still selling for same amount)

1 of the big shoots i picked up on went non toxic a few years ago on order from the game dealer.
Was going to refuse to take birds if they never went non toxic
So its very easy to do if their was a market and a benefit.

I will say wounding rates were shocking. Birds coming down very hard and just getting up and running or diving and bleeding very heavily too. Ur waistcoat was always covered in blood.
Ive seen and know folk ( mainly fowlers) shoot and kill very cleanly with steel. But they were good shots and homeloaded shells so going faster than factory loads.
From wot i seen on that shoot really not looking forward to being forced onto steel shot.
If it carries on like that i might have a decision to make as those wounding ratrs will get shooting stopped pretty quick

From wot ive seen factory steel is far less forgiving to poor or average shots

I found out last winter how near useless steel was. I tested four types and lost several birds. I started carrying lead on the same days and the moment I reverted back I had clean kills again!
Hell, I went out with my 10g muzzleloader and killed better than all the steel shots over the season.
When I did get a clean kill with steel I was amazed but usually the dog and I got tied up for 1/2 an hour or more.

I came to the conclusion that if that's the future I'll just rifle them!

 

[homer]

Heym do u honestly think their is a massive untapped market of folk desperate to eat game out there only stopped by lead??

And yet they likely eat this ultra processed foods, smoke, vape or drink or even use mobile phones or have wifi in their house.
Its a complete nonsense to think ingested lead shot is a significant health risk in this day and age.


If only a game dealer thought of that and went on their own only buying game shot with non toxic shot.
Would have the whole game market all to themselves.
Charge premium prices, hell they could even actually pay estates a fair price for their birds ( instead of taking them for free or even charging to take birds and still selling for same amount)

1 of the big shoots i picked up on went non toxic a few years ago on order from the game dealer.
Was going to refuse to take birds if they never went non toxic
So its very easy to do if their was a market and a benefit.

I will say wounding rates were shocking. Birds coming down very hard and just getting up and running or diving and bleeding very heavily too. Ur waistcoat was always covered in blood.
Ive seen and know folk ( mainly fowlers) shoot and kill very cleanly with steel. But they were good shots and homeloaded shells so going faster than factory loads.
From wot i seen on that shoot really not looking forward to being forced onto steel shot.
If it carries on like that i might have a decision to make as those wounding ratrs will get shooting stopped pretty quick

From wot ive seen factory steel is far less forgiving to poor or average shots

That will be the next assessment that will be carried out.
Too many wounded birds, still not enough game being eaten, ah well we'll just have to ban the lot!