kenbro
Well-Known Member
Me too, me too
Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
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That is without doubt fact. You have near me a once fortnightly a "100 Bird" CPSA Registered Shoot that will average one hundred and twenty five competitors. They don't now offer a "Pool Shoot" and their traps and clays are of good quality. So it is rare to have a "no bird".
The loads will be 28 gram which is one ounce. So that's seven hundred and eighty pounds of lead shot which is one third of a British ton. They usually through bad weather cancel maybe four or five shoots each year. Be that wind, rain, sleet, snow. So that's eighteen shoots a year that do take place. So at a conservative estimate that's six tons of lead per year.
The shoot has been running such for two, nay three decades. So thirty years at six tons a year and we are into one hundred and eighty tons of lead. But here's the nub. I doubt very much that the harm that this has supposedly caused to wildlife will even come close to the irreversible and permanent loss of habitat that will be caused by the housing development of four hundred and seventy house under but a short two miles away at "The Burroughs".
See below:
Update from Public Meeting on Wednesday 30th October 2024
URGENT UPDATE Lagan Homes Outline Planning Application - Ref: 24/00914/OUT Over 200 people attended the public meeting on 30th October 2024 which was called by the Parish Council in response to the above planning application to build 470 houses on land either... Read More »
So when that final brick is laid and the builders have long gone what chance then of ever seeing ground nesting birds or mammals such as hares inhabiting "The Burroughs"? None! In effect like a golf course or an out of town shopping mall it will become a desert to such. So everything is relative. But by putting out their one £160 RSPB mail order self-assembly birdbox with camera (I kid you not - Google it or see * at bottom) the future residents of "The Burroughs" can kid themselves they are doing their bit for British wildlife.
Yes, two wrongs don't make a right, but sitting in ivory tower attached to your new build "detached executive residence" in the "cloud cuckoo land" soon to be situate at "The Burroughs" whilst murmuring the mantra "lead bad...non-lead good" every Sunday evening listening to BBC Countryfile doesn't make it better either. If natural British fauna is of concern there's more than just the use of lead shot that needs addressing...but in reality never will be.
* Karen says "Don't buy" - March 2025. My husband and I treated ourselves to this for Christmas 2023 as we love to watch wildlife. For the first year it worked fine although unfortunately we had no birds nest. Now the camera will not hold its charge and we have to remove it every 4 days to bring in and charge. This is pointless if there are birds nesting as they will be disturbed. Save yourself a LOT of money and don't buy.
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This is from Gamebore.
Good Afternoon,
Thank you for getting in touch.
Unfortunately we have no plans to manufacture any .410 loads with Steel shot.
The space within a .410 3” case, for example, allows for only roughly 10grm of number 5 steel shot (due to having to use pellets two sizes larger than the equivalent lead pellet) – this reduces further if using a biodegradable wad cup which has thicker walls than a plastic wad.
Furthermore, the costs involved in developing our Bio-Wad in a .410 version would make it economically unviable, when considering the relatively low demand we see for .410 cartridges in general.
I’m sorry to disappoint you with this.
Very best wishes,
Good Afternoon,
Thank you for getting in touch.
Unfortunately we have no plans to manufacture any .410 loads with Steel shot.
The space within a .410 3” case, for example, allows for only roughly 10grm of number 5 steel shot (due to having to use pellets two sizes larger than the equivalent lead pellet) – this reduces further if using a biodegradable wad cup which has thicker walls than a plastic wad.
Furthermore, the costs involved in developing our Bio-Wad in a .410 version would make it economically unviable, when considering the relatively low demand we see for .410 cartridges in general.
I’m sorry to disappoint you with this.
Very best wishes,
We need to reset our thinking.
HSE have reported and the Government is going to implement a ban.
Discussions now needs to be on the detail, it looks like we may keep lead for some applications air guns for instance - but aren't they frequently used by youngsters who are perhaps more at risk?
The case to keep lead for muzzle loaders, 9mm flobert etc is strong, that's the current battle.
Given the Police now monitor our Social Media, broadcasting that you aren't going to comply with the law should ease the problem as you are jepodising your next renewal.
HSE have reported and the Government is going to implement a ban.
Discussions now needs to be on the detail, it looks like we may keep lead for some applications air guns for instance - but aren't they frequently used by youngsters who are perhaps more at risk?
The case to keep lead for muzzle loaders, 9mm flobert etc is strong, that's the current battle.
Given the Police now monitor our Social Media, broadcasting that you aren't going to comply with the law should ease the problem as you are jepodising your next renewal.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Anything less than 12 bore could be pretty much doomed (well done BASC/Swift), but what is also apparent is that both HM Govt. and the HSE are oblivious to environmental issues caused by plastic wads and oceanic micro-plastic pollution. Perhaps some of the wildfowlers on here could help out, what wads have they been using instead of plastic cups over the past 20 odd years?
I have a lot of the bio degradable steel shot cartridges but also plastic ones, here in Essex the lucerne growers require fibre which I use all the time anyway. I use a washing up bowl in the hide but with a 3 shot auto on the marsh with the tide licking in then the ones spat out do get missed, I only use U/O for both.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Remember this bill still has to go through parliament and be voted into law. There will be plenty of amendments going both ways.
If you don’t like direction of travel get on to your MPs and those who influence over MPs decision making.
Give them the facts and data to support the position you are taking.
If you don’t like direction of travel get on to your MPs and those who influence over MPs decision making.
Give them the facts and data to support the position you are taking.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
I must admit not tried factory steel so not sure the speed compared to lead shot.
But i can mind being compmetely outshot by a mate picking up on a morning flight ( keeper used to lets us shoot some morning flights) i put my gun down as birds were now out of my range and plenty picking up to do.
He was further away and still knocking 2 or 3 out each group with steel and his semi.
He is a better shot than me and using his home loaded steel.
But same guy on the keepers days reverted back to lead and really struggled to hit anything the 1st 2 days.
By 3rd day he had his eye in again for the slower moving lead loads.
End of day steel is coming and has been the case for years.
Im i not right in saying americain steel cartridges are faster the uk 1s?
Possibly uk and our orgs should spend some time getting the speeds raised so that steel is more effective
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
I think a lot is an expression of discontentment. A disdain for obvious prejudice.
We as a shooting community are some of the most law abiding of current society but it's not enough is it! They are gunning for us regardless.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
And no doubt my old friend you will yours to further the halt of freedom of choice.
Any luck on that study ?
kenbro
Well-Known Member
780 Lbs? From memory that’s only 68 Lbs above a cubic foot of lead.That is without doubt fact. You have near me a once fortnightly a "100 Bird" CPSA Registered Shoot that will average one hundred and twenty five competitors. They don't now offer a "Pool Shoot" and their traps and clays are of good quality. So it is rare to have a "no bird".
The loads will be 28 gram which is one ounce. So that's seven hundred and eighty pounds of lead shot which is one third of a British ton. They usually through bad weather cancel maybe four or five shoots each year. Be that wind, rain, sleet, snow. So that's eighteen shoots a year that do take place. So at a conservative estimate that's six tons of lead per year.
The shoot has been running such for two, nay three decades. So thirty years at six tons a year and we are into one hundred and eighty tons of lead. But here's the nub. I doubt very much that the harm that this has supposedly caused to wildlife will even come close to the irreversible and permanent loss of habitat that will be caused by the housing development of four hundred and seventy house under but a short two miles away at "The Burroughs".
See below:
Update from Public Meeting on Wednesday 30th October 2024
URGENT UPDATE Lagan Homes Outline Planning Application - Ref: 24/00914/OUT Over 200 people attended the public meeting on 30th October 2024 which was called by the Parish Council in response to the above planning application to build 470 houses on land either... Read More »www.ratbyparishcouncil.org.uk
So when that final brick is laid and the builders have long gone what chance then of ever seeing ground nesting birds or mammals such as hares inhabiting "The Burroughs"? None! In effect like a golf course or an out of town shopping mall it will become a desert to such. So everything is relative. But by putting out their one £160 RSPB mail order self-assembly birdbox with camera (I kid you not - Google it or see * at bottom) the future residents of "The Burroughs" can kid themselves they are doing their bit for British wildlife.
Yes, two wrongs don't make a right, but sitting in ivory tower attached to your new build "detached executive residence" in the "cloud cuckoo land" soon to be situate at "The Burroughs" whilst murmuring the mantra "lead bad...non-lead good" every Sunday evening listening to BBC Countryfile doesn't make it better either. If natural British fauna is of concern there's more than just the use of lead shot that needs addressing...but in reality never will be.
* Karen says "Don't buy" - March 2025. My husband and I treated ourselves to this for Christmas 2023 as we love to watch wildlife. For the first year it worked fine although unfortunately we had no birds nest. Now the camera will not hold its charge and we have to remove it every 4 days to bring in and charge. This is pointless if there are birds nesting as they will be disturbed. Save yourself a LOT of money and don't buy.
Bit a useless info. if I remembered right.
Kb
PeterHenry
Active Member
I might be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if this isn't achieved via secondary legislation / some existing framework that's been more or less copied over from the previous EU Reach regime. In other words, I would be surprised if it required a vote in Parliament.
Sol
Well-Known Member
This is actually something I didnt know and In reality, It does make sense I cant imagine there were many wildfowlers after 20GA Steel for geese.
However I'm under the assumption production wise It would be easier than say centerfire rifles (since those are made individually sized for each calibre) 20ga and 12ga use the same pellet size just differing grams of shot If I understand correctly.
Long as the shot is produced there's nothing saying a company that already produces steel 12ga cant start producing 20ga etc for the British market.
Or someone could home load them too if they have the equipment.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
It's relative. Or rather a case of diminishing returns. Lead has proven most efficient hence why we now know cartridges as they are. With steel being lighter technically we would all start to need to shoot 10 gauges to compensate.
Ever wondered why 3.5" 12g came about.
To compensate what was lost etc.
So 20g is going to struggle a bit.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
No thanks, existing lead cartridges have plenty enough recoil and noise already
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
A 6 1/2 lb 10 bore?
Is there any buy back sceme mentioned for rifles now pretty much outlawed by the lead ban?
I shoot a .300 blackout with subs on one contract inparticular for removal of foxes in private grounds, i appreciate it can be loaded supersonically but absolutely no super sonic ammo stipulated on contract, if that was the case i could quite easily use my .222,
I also fully understand a.22lr sub would do the trick, at reduced ranges, and we all know how “ great” 22 lr quality control can be at present with poor accuracy and crackers, plus if i had a flier and jawed a fox with the rimfire it would turn to a world of shite very quickly, a 190gn sub pinned through both shoulders works quite brilliantly.
I also use a 38/357 for fallen stock/HD, legal quarry, is there currently any leas toxic bullets (bullets, not ammo) available for this too? Or are they both redundant in 2/3 years
I shoot a .300 blackout with subs on one contract inparticular for removal of foxes in private grounds, i appreciate it can be loaded supersonically but absolutely no super sonic ammo stipulated on contract, if that was the case i could quite easily use my .222,
I also fully understand a.22lr sub would do the trick, at reduced ranges, and we all know how “ great” 22 lr quality control can be at present with poor accuracy and crackers, plus if i had a flier and jawed a fox with the rimfire it would turn to a world of shite very quickly, a 190gn sub pinned through both shoulders works quite brilliantly.
I also use a 38/357 for fallen stock/HD, legal quarry, is there currently any leas toxic bullets (bullets, not ammo) available for this too? Or are they both redundant in 2/3 years
If this is the case then how have Winchester managed it ?
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Sol
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing the only thing that could preform like lead would be Tungsten right? but watching my mates in the US shoot TSS Turkey loads there running near $100 a box for 6-7 shells, looking at the UK If you were to home reload your paying just shy of £90 for a kilo of shot, Not to mention your powders and the fact they can be finicky and require certian wads, and also can potentially be damaging for some shotguns.
I guess if you didnt want to swap in a 20ga you own, but wanted too shoot a few geese on the estuary each year It might not be a terrible choice..... but If people wanted to do that, they already are with the lead restrictions on waterfowl regardless.
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