Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[Ruger#1]

Volunteering to move away from lead shot for live quarry shooting was and is your choice. Nobody has been forcing you to do anything. However, if you disagreed with the strategy on this all those years ago did you make representations to BASC Council about your concerns? There was an online AGM on 11 July 2020 for example.

The whole strategy was preposterous. Advocating for a voluntary restriction while at the same time having a policy of opposing further restrictions was ridiculous. BASC conceded that the case for curtailing the use of lead shot had merit. You yourself then went on to defend the cessation of the use of lead shot by flooding forums with lead ingestion rate data which at best was minimal and worst a la woodpecker tale didn’t actually exist. Whichever clown decided on this approach should have his employment future carefully considered and those who went along with this harebrained approach should have a good think to themselves and avoid making such basic mistakes in future.
You can’t negotiate exemptions or concessions if you’ve already shown your hand and have absolutely nothing to bargain with. Had BASC et al been stronger the borderline practices surrounding the minimal use of lead shot would have had a greater chance of finding themselves exempt from future legislation.

 

[enfieldspares]

However jogging along and not making waves is what this country is about these days for the sake of a company car and good pension.

And the chilled Pimm's glad hand receptions at the Game fair and the driven days for MPs at Catton Hall. Don't forget those...and paid eventually from the members' subs.

 

[Laurie]

There is no such thing as a HO approved range only HO approved Clubs.

Ranges are no longer approved by any official body, the lead ban talks about registering ranges such that lead may continue to be used.

Correct, but the NRA took on board the job of devising safety, design, and maintenance standards for privately owned ranges many years ago when the Army dropped this role and restricted itself to its own ranges. This includes backstop design, materials, and maintenance including keeping records of rounds fired and when deleading is required and done. Club compliance is necessary in this, as in other NRA codes (such as the recently instituted one on handloading practices) to be able to buy and be protected by the NRA's liability insurance arrangements. As I understand it, any club operating a range following these practices and keeping work records will automatically have their range accepted on the HSE approved ranges list as advised to it by the NRA.

Many clubs don't own a fullbore range of course and hire capacity on Landmark operated MoD ranges which presumably will all go on any approved list without issues.

Where I can see problems arising may be those clubs owning private short distance ranges which are primarily used for .22 rimfire (exempt), but are also partly or wholly licensed for lower-power revolver cartridge calibre rifles. They probably also comply with the NRA range standards regime for high-power fullbore rifle use. I don't know, no longer shooting on any such facility myself, but I'm sure there are forum members involved in running such clubs/ranges who do, and can comment on this. In the unlikely event of their not already being NRA standards compliant, they may opt to drop revolver calibres and restrict themselves to .22 shooting.

 

[newsatten]

The whole history of British oppression towards shooting folk IS negative and I didn't start it.
Please point out an act of parliament that was good for shooting?

The 63’ green paper was the beginning of the end ,
Simply banish any form of private gun ownership within 50 years,
Obviously the Home office bureaucrat's have failed , but still managed to do mortal damage to shooting ,
The younger generation have zero idea of how the restrictions have affected shooting and once all us old gits are brown bread
It will just pass into history
But till then I’ll keep doing my bit ,
The wife and I have been out all day in our old 68’ MG roadster, doing my bit towards global warming and nullifying at least 10 sh-te Teslas
I’ll keep using my guns and my old cars till it’s illegal to do so,

 

[jall55]

So it's early days and you and your team didn't adopt it straight away?
I'm confused now by your signals.
Who tried oh so very much?

Yes i make no secret of that SD - but we have now collectively fired many thousands of cartridges and as i say a full season of game shooting produced results better than the previous 3 season in terms of shot to kill ratios if that is your thing

 

[enfieldspares]

Because if the law states that you can only use lead cored ammo on a HO approved range, with facilities and procedures to capture Yesterday I was testing 223 Lead cored FMJ ammo shooting into the sand butts run by a Scottish Government approved club. I could have decided to go deer stalking later on with that ammo and rifle. However the Deer Acts and Orders make it mandatory to use an expanding bullet and if on anything bigger than roe, a minimum of 80gn, and if I had done so I would have been breaking the law.

When the new laws come into play, everyone will have a choice. Obey them. Or choose to disobey, putting your FAC, deer stalking permissions etc etc at risk.

In some countries...New Zealand....if caught with non permitted ammunition in an area where only permitted ammunition is allowed you will be in the mire. Same as getting the Monday 11.55am from Heathrow to Lagos and suddenly you feel those two "fox medicine" old 36gram Alphamax #3 in your sleeveless jerkin left over from Friday's following the combine. Anyone guess where I am from that?

 

[jall55]

And the chilled Pimm's glad hand receptions at the Game fair and the driven days for MPs at Catton Hall. Don't forget those...and paid eventually from the members' subs.

Are you saying they are wrong to engage with MPs and the like ?

 

[Ruger#1]

BASC does have very good support - don't let a few loud voices on forums convince you otherwise. Even when BASC's strategy was 'no evidence no change' some of the same folk on here looking back at that era with rose tinted glasses were the very ones using social media to attack BASC as 'anti-lead', some continuing to blame BASC for the 1999-2003 lead shot regulations that the UK government implemented after signing the international AEWA inter-government treaty. There will always be a minority with entrenched views and axes to grind whatever BASC does. That's just the way of the world inside the shooting community bubble. Outside that bubble one has to consider the views of other audiences - the general public, the media and the UK governments, and arguing for the status quo on lead ammunition is simply not credible. At the height of the 'denial era' one organisation went so far as to declare in a press release that "lead makes you beautiful and healthy'. Best to look ahead - and no legislation has been tabled yet.

A complete denial of BASC’s poor performance in fighting further legislation and a failure to accept that the campaign by BASC to maintain the use of lead was sadly lacking as evidenced by the lack of any meaningful exemptions. A successful campaign would have seen the risks where greatest minimised but not eradicated with a resultant benefit of exemptions for those shooting practices creating minimal lead dispersal.
At what point did it become obligatory to consider the views of the general public media and UK government. Your remit is to represent the views and best interests of the shooting community not pander to ill informed agenda driven politics.
Your liking for sound bites ie minefields of lead ,focusing on the statement that you say was made regarding “lead makes you beautiful and healthy” betrays a personal sympathy for further lead shot restrictions. Surely not the best credentials for those in employ of BASC with its policy of lead shot restriction opposition as you constantly remind us.

 

[Dunwaters]

I thought you wanted to help earlier!
Did you read my reply to you?

If you feel discomfort vacate the chat.

I am about to place an order on some Hornady flex tip mono for my 3030 to try.
Is that ok?

I’m TRYING to help, I provided several potential solutions to your own personal transition under the current proposals.
The only proposed solution you had issue with was driving steel shot fast enough to be effective from a muzzle loader.
Solution, use something else or give up the smoke pole.
A little acknowledgement that I am actually trying to help wouldn’t go amiss, I did point out that there were probably non lead 30/30 compatible bullets out there, and I pointed out that your .222 and rimfires were excluded from the restrictions
You could just as easily have read read the damn HSE proposals yourself.
But you didn’t.
You may also choose to continue with the already lost campaign to keep lead, or you can continue to shoot using the alternatives.
What is more important to you?
The lead, or the shooting?
I know what my answer is, I suspect I’m not the only one, I’m shootin’ until someone says I can’t.
If I have to I will throw rocks or sticks, I’m a hunter, always have been and always will be.

You decide for yourself.

But please stop whining.

 

[levigsp]

Please define cheap.

Tungsten shot is being used by home loaders in the U.K. in the .410 typically 2mm diameter so lots of pellets, for wildfowling. .410 as 14gms is typical load so no point using a 12ga. But they are certainly not a cheap cartridge.

Good to see you look to the future for home loading, let’s hope the very few business that supply the components within the u.k. are still in businesses in 2029 as apparently one RFD a week on average is closing.

That was ok, but once the TSS18 shot in the uk is used, thats it! China has banned its export.

 

[Hambone]

I cannot speak for others but my whinging is aimed at BASC;s double standards and political games not the actual non toxic issue. I have used steel shot for several years and am not worried about the forthcoming ban, however I have a huge problem with the next issue which will be plastic shot cups poisoning the environment (potentially a bigger problem for shooting as it is more visible and will lead to permissions lost). To ban lead from rifle shooting might cause no other problem than cost but in my opinion the perceived issue with lead is so small as to be irrelevant!

Jesus H Christ.
30 more pages of crap where the only constant is that the more vociferous contributors can’t/ wont/ refuse to inform themselves or work work out solutions.
Has it occurred to any of you that you’re being a bunch of WLB’s?
Concentrate on solutions, and stop whinging.
I also nominate @Conor O'Gorman for the Nobel prize for persistence in the face of constant attacks on his organisation based on absolute ignorance of the facts and total refusal to accept scientific evidence.
Can you naysayers please stop whinging for long enough to read the proposals, digest the information and adapt?
Anyone with a bit of a backbone could work through this.
Please please stop whingeing, if you can’t stop the whingeing at least accept that YOU, rather than the restrictions, might be the bigger problem.
Adapt, improvise and overcome ladies, or just FRO, and let the rest of us do it in peace.
Your being irrational and doing us no favours.

 

[Dunwaters]

I cannot speak for others but my whinging is aimed at BASC;s double standards and political games not the actual non toxic issue. I have used steel shot for several years and am not worried about the forthcoming ban, however I have a huge problem with the next issue which will be plastic shot cups poisoning the environment (potentially a bigger problem for shooting as it is more visible and will lead to permissions lost). To ban lead from rifle shooting might cause no other problem than cost but are in my opinion the perceived issue with lead is so small as to be irrelevant!

One thing at a time.
The lead ban has precipitated the situation with plastic wads, it will be solved.
If you really get into the “ poisoning the planet “ frame, you should have had yourself and your wife sterilised and given all your money to a third world NGO.
I’m guessing you didn’t.

 

[Hambone]

Its more of a polluting a field type of thing but I am impressed by the sterilising comment Socialist by any chance?

 

[Dunwaters]

Its more of a polluting a field type of thing but I am impressed by the sterilising comment Socialist by any chance?

If that was aimed at me, no I’m more of an old fashioned right wing centrist.
Damn few of us about nowadays.
We need protection.

 

[Ruger#1]

also nominate @Conor O'Gorman for the Nobel prize for persistence in the face of constant attacks on his organisation based on absolute ignorance of the facts and total refusal to accept scientific evidence.
Can you naysayers please stop whinging for long enough to read the proposals, digest the information and adapt?
Anyone with a bit of a backbone could work through this.

What about the “ constant attacks on his organisation” based on their /his perceived inadequate defence of shooting sports best interests rather than ignorance .
Anyone with a bit of backbone would choose to counter claims of shortcomings long before now instead we have deflection and turning a blind eye to legitimate concerns.
The “total refusal to accept scientific evidence “is possibly due to the failure to provide scientific evidence and produce context that makes a sound case for justifying further restrictions.
As stated earlier considering the concerns of the general public media and UK government seems to take precedence over representing shooters best interests.
BASC is often touted as “the voice of shooting “ when did it morph into the voice of the general public, media and the UK government ?
That you choose to state that you would nominate C O’G for a Nobel prize in persistence speaks volumes would that be for persistently ignoring points made and questions asked because if it is I’ll gladly second it.

 

[timbrayford]

I cannot speak for others but my whinging is aimed at BASC;s double standards and political games not the actual non toxic issue. I have used steel shot for several years and am not worried about the forthcoming ban, however I have a huge problem with the next issue which will be plastic shot cups poisoning the environment (potentially a bigger problem for shooting as it is more visible and will lead to permissions lost). To ban lead from rifle shooting might cause no other problem than cost but in my opinion the perceived issue with lead is so small as to be irrelevant!

Well said

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Exactly this if i was in W J etal id be doing exactly that plus making a big deal about single use plastic cartridge cases too.
Also a few studies on bismoth, tungsten and copper and any negarive effects they have on anything.

I would imagine they only have to make a claim about the safety to WHO and we're back to square 1 with WHO having to prove X is safe and to wot dose.
If even possible to prove it will not be cheap and costs will be passed on to shooters.

How long is it going to be until someone chips a tooth on a steel shot and sues?

Im still not 100% sure wot will happen if u have ingested steel shot and go throu an MRI scanner?
Will it pull the shot out of u from the inside?
Some say it could be an issue

Wot happens if somehow a sharp shard of copper makes its way into food chain.
Could it possibly damage the stomach or intestine linings?

The alnternatives are next best at best, their is absolutely no argument about them being inferrior.


Its just going to be a cibstant gri d of being attacked from all sides.

Look at in eng quite a few shoots cant release pheasants on some of their grounds.
Watch the distances sneak out or change to Sssi's too.
Every year the GLs are challenged, i can see it being the case that pigeons need to be in the crop their damaging, so roost shooting or on stubbles will be banned

Hell in scotland holyrood has been shafting shooters for decades now.
97% of airgun license consultation against it.
Recent snaring ban, muirburn, protrction of blue hares and licencing of grouse shoots. Scottish grouse moors must be almost unfeasable now.
And expect things to be tightened up in future.
And much off that legislation was AGAINST the reccomendations of their own paid for expert independant reports and working group findings.
U really couldnae make it up.

The Society and College of Radiographers informed BASC that to their knowledge there have been no reported incidents of harm caused by ingested steel shot during an MRI scan in the UK. However, the steel shot could cause image distortion during the MRI scan and for that reason if you think you have ingested steel shot before your scan you should let the staff in the MRI department know before your appointment. I don't see what there is to be concerned about as regards MRIs and steel shot in light of advice from medical experts. Also, worth noting that there have been no recorded incidents of harm caused by ingested steel shot during an MRI scan in Denmark or USA where steel shot has been used for decades for live quarry shooting.

As for broken teeth/fillings, any type of shot can damage teeth, including steel, lead, bismuth, TSS etc. and dentists in countries that have already phased out lead have not seen an increase in tooth damage due to biting other shot types. I have broken fillings on pork scratchings but never on steel, TSS or lead shot!

 

[Smellydog]

I’m TRYING to help, I provided several potential solutions to your own personal transition under the current proposals.
The only proposed solution you had issue with was driving steel shot fast enough to be effective from a muzzle loader.
Solution, use something else or give up the smoke pole.
A little acknowledgement that I am actually trying to help wouldn’t go amiss, I did point out that there were probably non lead 30/30 compatible bullets out there, and I pointed out that your .222 and rimfires were excluded from the restrictions
You could just as easily have read read the damn HSE proposals yourself.
But you didn’t.
You may also choose to continue with the already lost campaign to keep lead, or you can continue to shoot using the alternatives.
What is more important to you?
The lead, or the shooting?
I know what my answer is, I suspect I’m not the only one, I’m shootin’ until someone says I can’t.
If I have to I will throw rocks or sticks, I’m a hunter, always have been and always will be.

You decide for yourself.

But please stop whining.

Thanks for TRYING but I'll be ok

Actually I've had a grand afternoon. Whinging and shooting all at the same time.
I noticed the pigeons using a grand old oak and thought I'll get under that in the shade and a breeze.
I used a cheap air rifle. No deeks, no blind building and no expensive cartridges. And no plastic wads!

I'm getting an alternative for the 3030.
On reflection the muzzleloaders may have to go. Very sad but I have had near 30 years fun with them and what I don't know about them isn't worth knowing!

I don't want to loose the 17 hmr, I use it a lot. I'd drop the 22 first! So that's up in the air still.
The 410, lord knows, it'll be useless I guess.

Depending on how it turns out most my shotguns will go. Probably just keep one with the flur de Lye's stamp and a 3" sxs.

So there go. I'm resigning to the fact but truthfully I've enjoyed this debate. Think I only lost it twice, that's good for me!

 

[Tim.243]

The 63’ green paper was the beginning of the end ,
Simply banish any form of private gun ownership within 50 years,
Obviously the Home office bureaucrat's have failed , but still managed to do mortal damage to shooting ,
The younger generation have zero idea of how the restrictions have affected shooting and once all us old gits are brown bread
It will just pass into history
But till then I’ll keep doing my bit ,
The wife and I have been out all day in our old 68’ MG roadster, doing my bit towards global warming and nullifying at least 10 sh-te Teslas
I’ll keep using my guns and my old cars till it’s illegal to do so,

I was chatting to "H" on Friday they farm around 2.5k acres, I do work for them and a number of farms locally. We were going through planed jobs and shooting. He is 30 years younger than me so as I told him the next person who is waiting for me to pack up shooting better learn to weld.

That raised a smile and a nod.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Because you're merely looking for an argument and I'm not rising to the bait of course!

Then why look for an argument with such unwarranted comments about BASC and personal comments about John and myself in this thread? What I think many will be interested in is an explanation from yourself and @hendrix's rifle about why both of you as NGO members would spend time on here criticising BASC about a voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting that the NGO supported and especially given that the NGO response to the December 2024 HSE recommendations to the government was: "Lead exposure poses serious risks to wildlife, domestic animals, and humans, particularly children. This move supports conservation and aligns with existing efforts across Europe". Do you or @hendrix's rifle support your organisation's position on lead ammunition?