Lead and opinion

The toxic effects of lead are regularly debated on here with some people having widely differing views. So I'm genuinely interested in the thought of those who don't consider lead a problem, as this relates to some training I do.

So what do you think is incorrect about the accepted scientific understanding that:

a) lead is poisonous, disrupting many body processes
b) it's a cumulative poison with no known safe minimum
c) the effects are particularly bad in the young
d) that lead particles occur in muscle in animals shot with lead bullets away from the actual wound
e) that people who regularly eat meat from animals shot with lead have higher lead levels in their body
f) that birds are highly sensitive to lead

Note - no comment on the accuracy of lead or the knock down, this is purely lead's biological impact

Bad Science, Faulty Studies Continue Attacks on Hunting, Lead Ammo


“…hunters have used lead-based traditional ammunition for the taking of game for more than four-hundred years. Even the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) note there has never been a documented instance of a human falling ill after ingesting game harvested with traditional ammunition.

maximus otter
 
I would absolutely agree your comments about plastic, but lead is pretty harmful as well to pregnant women and young children - it’s particularly harmful to the development of young brains.

Bear in mind that the unborn in the womb is nourished from the blood of the mother, so any toxins in the mothers end up in the embryo and then pheotus. .

Have a read of

However did I survive?
 
May I ask your age and when did you start eating shot game please?
67, forced to eat it during the 1960s whether I liked it or not. I understand that my mother ate shot game when she was pregnant both with me and my brother, now aged 69. Both of us excelled academically, how was this all possible? Surely if the medical profession is correct we both should have been dunces at school and have long since expired by now?
 
67, forced to eat it during the 1960s whether I liked it or not. I understand that my mother ate shot game when she was pregnant both with me and my brother, now aged 69. Both of us excelled academically, how was this all possible? Surely if the medical profession is correct we both should have been dunces at school and have long since expired by now?
Thank you.
 
Context is everything: anyone not already mentally impaired due to handling their bullets will strive to ensure no lead enters the food chain from culled deer, whether they do this by eg head shooting and removing same or use copper slugs, the end result is same for the consumer.

Wheareas, in the case of injections for the global population being sold as ‘safe and effective’..


 
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The presence of lead in the ground is usually associated with shot. However, a research of ISPRA (Italian institute for environmental research, lead by a bunch of antis) found our that the highest concentration of lead in the ground is in Latium (Rome region) and Sardinia (region with some small lead mine). Strangely, the North Eastern regions, where during WW1 Austrians and Italians shot millions of rounds, showed the same (low) concentration of the rest of the peninsula. Moreover, in Greenland, where several children were showing alarming presence of lead in the blood (supposedly due to being fed with venison and shot birds) nobody minded about important lead mines.
I don't want to underestimate the problem, quite serious as far as I know, in the eastern U.S. but I believe that regulations about lead containing ammunition are mainly lead by prejudice against shooting.
 
Things like Tiktok and other social media, AI, electric vehicles and parenting where consequences arent feared are far more harmful than lead from what I can tell
 
Thanks for the responses. What I was trying to understand show or why some people believe a certain view. It's something I've faced throughout my work where clients take more credibility from the breeder or the person in the pub than me. I don't take this personally, it's human nature!
So in the regular debates on lead I'm curious that some seem to deny the evidence that lead is a significant problem. Going back to my questions, I accept the error in f) that birds are highly sensitive to lead. This is probably due to some of the learning I have picked up over the years. Birds as a species seem no more sensitive to lead as a poison, their issue is in the risk of exposure.
Picking up on some of the comment, I've had a bit of a read through the scientific literature
"No safe level of lead" - there isn't. Effects have been seen at <5microgram/100ml blood, that's small. Lead sits in the bone for decades, hence the issue of an accumulative poison
"Human gut does not absorb lead from shot" - it does, several studies have shown this. In fairness these are case control studies, rather than experiments to give some people shot and others not and measure the effect
"Thousands of birds killed" - there's quite a lot of work to show that they are and this is before the impact of lead on offspring is considered.

References to look at - Effects of lead from ammunition on birds and other wildlife: A review and update Pain et al 2019- may be behind a paywall
Toxicological profile for lead (2020) from the US department of health and human services - lots of detail on the actual mechanisms www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp13.pdf

 
One article I read said that during all the “ scientific “ debate about lead and banning it not a single person/case was produced and ratified showing anyone in this country who died or was very ill from ingesting game shot with lead, given we have been shooting game with lead for over a hundred years that seems astonishing
 
One wonders what the general public would say were they to understand fully the health impact of plastics and the chemicals used in their production, including the type that the venison - be it shot with lead or copper - is typically sealed in.

Last time I checked, they seemed either unconcerned or accepting of the ‘risk’.

Given that no producer is looking either to be prosecuted for poisoning their customers (enlightened self interest), and therefore takes steps to mitigate against such an eventuality, but are at the same time constrained and obliged to use said plastics in the packaging of the raw product, it seems that the lead issue is not the real danger in our modern day wellbeing; it doesn’t seem to be the case that lead is an endocrine disrupting risk, but we already know the dangers of plastics, we just accept the fact.

As before, context is everything.
 
If you have an agenda statistics can be found and used to give more credence to back the agenda or you would dismiss them.
Lead we know is bad for us we know but as previously posted it's the way that lead and the type of lead enters the body.
There have been many anecdotal tales of people, animals and birds shot with lead and being wounded and living out their lives for a long time with no ill effects from the lead they are carrying around in their body.
 
Thanks for the responses. What I was trying to understand show or why some people believe a certain view. It's something I've faced throughout my work where clients take more credibility from the breeder or the person in the pub than me. I don't take this personally, it's human nature!
So in the regular debates on lead I'm curious that some seem to deny the evidence that lead is a significant problem. Going back to my questions, I accept the error in f) that birds are highly sensitive to lead. This is probably due to some of the learning I have picked up over the years. Birds as a species seem no more sensitive to lead as a poison, their issue is in the risk of exposure.
Picking up on some of the comment, I've had a bit of a read through the scientific literature
"No safe level of lead" - there isn't. Effects have been seen at <5microgram/100ml blood, that's small. Lead sits in the bone for decades, hence the issue of an accumulative poison
"Human gut does not absorb lead from shot" - it does, several studies have shown this. In fairness these are case control studies, rather than experiments to give some people shot and others not and measure the effect
"Thousands of birds killed" - there's quite a lot of work to show that they are and this is before the impact of lead on offspring is considered.

References to look at - Effects of lead from ammunition on birds and other wildlife: A review and update Pain et al 2019- may be behind a paywall
Toxicological profile for lead (2020) from the US department of health and human services - lots of detail on the actual mechanisms www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp13.pdf


I understand your frustration

It is not unique to you, nor this subject

My old man used to moan like hell about African folk preferring treatment from a witch doctor rather than western medicine

Often he only got them when the which doctor (recognising an impending calamity), parcelled them off to him

He came across the reverse bias having conducted 3 years of research into lead encephalopathy and placental transfer of lead. He had his research shut down by the mining company - his employer - that found his findings ‘inconvenient’.

However perhaps the scientific community can take some of the blame over recent years by allowing their professions and scientific discipline to be highjacked for political ends

The general population might not be schooled in scientific procedure …

They can however sniff out bullsh*t and recognise where snake oil promoters are pulling a fast one

The net zero codswallop being a major factor in developing peoples’ bollocks repellent

If there is indeed a link between deer shot by lead projectiles causing significant lead exposure to the individual (who might typically eat venison once a year)

If indeed there is a link between a rib to rib or shoulder shot deer and lead exposure from occasional consumption of its hind quarters

Then there are many ways of mitigation other than banning lead projectiles in their entirety

Pushing that agenda serves neither science, the shooter nor the consumer
 
There are not many, but here is one: Intoxication from an Accidentally Ingested Lead Shot Retained in the Gastrointestinal Tract - PMC a woman which illness typical of lead and with raised lead who had swallowed lead shot.
That appears to be a case from Sweden, not the UK, thus Tazz's comment stands.
There are some unusual characteristics in this report which raise questions as to its reliability.
Firstly, and most importantly, it is not plausibly attributable to eating lead-shot game, wuth the patient not reporting any consumption consistent with the lead found. This person had illness and elevated blood lead levels attributed to a projectile asserted to be lead, but with significantly different physical characteristics - e.g.a density far higher than lead (15g/cm^3), a physical appearance inconsistent with the reported presumed history. It is a bullet of a type unknown to me, or I suspect to anyone else who hunts. A spherical bullet fired from a 6mm calibre rifle, presumed to have been used on wild boar. I am not expert on Swedish hunting law, but I do not believe that it is legal or practical to hunt boar with a single fairly low velocity 26 grain lead ball. The muzzle loaders among us will be able to opine more authoritatively as to whether 6mm lead ball rifles even exist and their plausible uses.

Aside from that, it is further doubtful that the chemical conditions in the ascending colon (pH around 6.4) are capable of producing that sort of exposure from a single sphere with a surface area of just over 1cm^2.

I'm sure you would agree that the report you link to has a number of issues and specifically does not actually say that the person consumed this lead in game meat, but rather that the patient did not think they had. Why, then, given the obvious apparent flaws in it, was it persuasive to you?

It seems surprising to me that you do not recognise that you are yourself exhibiting a pretty strong bias on lead ammunition use being significantly which is not actually supported by facts. Instead, you attach far more importance to the assertions of a small clique of anti-shooting activists. Why are their views more important than facts?
 
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That appears to be a case from Sweden, not the UK, thus Tazz's comment stands.
There are some unusual characteristics in this report which raise questions as to its reliability.
Firstly, and most importantly, it is not plausibly attributable to eating lead-shot game, wuth the patient not reporting any consumption consistent with the lead found. This person had illness and elevated blood lead levels attributed to a projectile asserted to be lead, but with significantly different physical characteristics - e.g.a density far higher than lead (15g/cm^3), a physical appearance inconsistent with the reported presumed history. It is a bullet of a type unknown to me, or I suspect to anyone else who hunts. A spherical bullet fired from a 6mm calibre rifle, presumed to have been used on wild boar. I am not expert on Swedish hunting law, but I do not believe that it is legal or practical to hunt boar with a single fairly low velocity 26 grain lead ball. The muzzle loaders among us will be able to opine more authoritatively as to whether 6mm lead ball rifles even exist and their plausible uses.

Aside from that, it is further doubtful that the chemical conditions in the ascending colon (pH around 6.4) are capable of producing that sort of exposure from a single sphere with a surface area of just over 1cm^2.

I'm sure you would agree that the report you link to has a number of issues and specifically does not actually say that the person consumed this lead in game meat, but rather that the patient did not think they had. Why, then, given the obvious apparent flaws in it, was it persuasive to you?

It seems surprising to me that you do not recognise that you are yourself exhibiting a pretty strong bias on lead ammunition use being significantly which is not actually supported by facts. Instead, you attach far more importance to the assertions of a small clique of anti-shooting activists. Why are their views more important than facts?
In the reading up I've been doing, trying to present evidence that is balanced, acknowledging areas of uncertainty, using my experience and learning, I've almost made a point of avoiding what some on here regard as the anti-lead cabal - it hasn't always been possible. The Swedish case is interesting in lots of respects, not least as it lists other cases of ingested lead leading to lead poisoning.

I find it fascinating that I am asked to produce a case and I do, and some still look for exceptions and loopholes.

A professional opinion is that lead is toxic in just about all forms, there is no safe level, it accumulates, and it has an impact on wildlife.
 
In the reading up I've been doing, trying to present evidence that is balanced, acknowledging areas of uncertainty, using my experience and learning, I've almost made a point of avoiding what some on here regard as the anti-lead cabal - it hasn't always been possible.
Which ought to have perhaps rung an alarm bell?
The Swedish case is interesting in lots of respects, not least as it lists other cases of ingested lead leading to lead poisoning.
That is something of a deflection. The pertinent fact is that the case you've cited cannot be confidently represented as actually being somebody poisoned by ingesting food contaminated with lead ammunition. (She did not admit having eaten game meat at all in the relevant period, the particle did not correlate to any legal or plausible projectile , and the authors made spurious statements about it. ) You have not admitted that fact, even though the authors did. I'm having difficulty accepting that you can read that and reach the opposite conclusion, without being significantly biased. Where am I wrong in this?
The other cases include people swallowing fishing weights and so on.
I find it fascinating that I am asked to produce a case and I do, and some still look for exceptions and loopholes.
With respect, the absence of the critical parts of your case are hardly exceptions or loopholes. What you are doing, in common with fellow travellers, is simply making a limited case, extrapolating it far beyond the limits of what can be supported by evidence and then claiming that the case is conclusive, and treating those who notice the fact that the evidence is weak or non-existent as being less rational than you. Instead of either re-assessing your opinion in light of what the facts actually indicate, or amend the case to address its deficiencies, they continue to persist in a seriously defective path by making straw man arguments revolving around irrelevances to do with leaded petrol, paint, industrial lead, condors, the fact that lead is toxic when people are exposed to its compounds etc. This is incorrect.

In fact, your argument in favour of lead ammunition causing harm to human health consists entirely of exceptions - which aren't even necessarily compelling exceptions. Surely you can acknowledge this?

A professional opinion is that lead is toxic in just about all forms, there is no safe level, it accumulates, and it has an impact on wildlife.
That is not in dispute. However, it is also very, very different from the opinion that lead ammunition is so harmful to human and animal health as to merit a ban.
 
Thanks for the responses. What I was trying to understand show or why some people believe a certain view. It's something I've faced throughout my work where clients take more credibility from the breeder or the person in the pub than me. I don't take this personally, it's human nature!
So in the regular debates on lead I'm curious that some seem to deny the evidence that lead is a significant problem. Going back to my questions, I accept the error in f) that birds are highly sensitive to lead. This is probably due to some of the learning I have picked up over the years. Birds as a species seem no more sensitive to lead as a poison, their issue is in the risk of exposure.
Picking up on some of the comment, I've had a bit of a read through the scientific literature
"No safe level of lead" - there isn't. Effects have been seen at <5microgram/100ml blood, that's small. Lead sits in the bone for decades, hence the issue of an accumulative poison
"Human gut does not absorb lead from shot" - it does, several studies have shown this. In fairness these are case control studies, rather than experiments to give some people shot and others not and measure the effect
"Thousands of birds killed" - there's quite a lot of work to show that they are and this is before the impact of lead on offspring is considered.

References to look at - Effects of lead from ammunition on birds and other wildlife: A review and update Pain et al 2019- may be behind a paywall
Toxicological profile for lead (2020) from the US department of health and human services - lots of detail on the actual mechanisms www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp13.pdf

i have found them to be very sensitive to 32g of number 5 lead shot although a few i tested this on seemed to fly by unaffected often after a second barrel as well.......
 
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