Lead free ammo, inhumane ?

Lots of posts on this subject; some prefer lead, others get good results with non-toxic. Simple as that.
 
Lead bullets can also be 'inhumane', if they're the wrong design for the application.

My feeling is that one needs to pick the right bullet (lead or otherwise) for the impact velocity, quarry and point of aim.
Folk in general have less experience doing that with non-lead options - and I do wonder whether that's where the perceived problem lies?

I'm badly-qualified to comment on this in any detail as my experience is very limited. I've only ever fired one non-lead bullet at anything - 140gr .270 Barnes of some kind at a 59kg boar, which simply fell over dead.
 
There's a very important word there 'can' be inhumane. What Nathan Foster correctly identifies is, like any bullet, a non-lead projectile requires a certain velocity to expand.

For where that velocity is met they are humane, where the velocity is not met they may fail to fully expand and therefore may result in slower less humane kills. This is not unique to non-lead.

As someone who has used both non-lead and lead I can say from my experience where a non-lead bullet is used within its performance envelope it will produce very quick and humane kills, hence why I (out of personal choice) will go for non-lead.

Out of one of my personal rifles I know that I can expect the bullet to expand reliably out to ~300M, which given the non-dialable scope and lack of graduated reticule is more than far enough. I am very aware any shots taken beyond that given the .308 trajectory and the rifle setup would be irresponsible, regardless of shooter ability and the incredible accuracy of the rifle.

On one of my other rifles the bullet will reliably expand out to ~450M, which even with the dialable scope and set up of the rifle is beyond what I would consider an ethical range for standard shots, regardless of shooter ability, simply down to the magnitude of factors that can affect the path of the bullet at that range, hence I am not limited by my bullets performance envelope here either.

Both examples are using very safe estimates for what the bullets performance envelope is, hence a very high degree of confidence in both of these bullets and their performance at their designated ranges.

With regards to shot reaction, I am concerned when I shoot a deer and it does not have a 'bang flop' reaction. This, while in part down to shot placement, is also a testament to how well the bullets will work.

I for one will certainly not be worried when they remove lead as an option for deer stalking, however it does concern me how resistant to change we are as a community. This change is going to come about some way or other, that much is already very clear. We would do ourselves a massive favour if we are seen to be reasonable and to be open and looking for progress, rather than digging our heels in and burying our heads in the sand. If you take one thing from this post, I would urge you to make an effort to try and be open to progressing, get some non-lead ammunition, chronograph it and verify its performance envelope, then go and try it. You may surprise yourself with what you find.



Apologies for what may seem a bit of a lecture.

Kind regards,

Ben



PS. I have a great deal of respect for Nathan Foster and all he does, I have read all of his books cover to cover multiple times and think he can make some very interesting and valid points, however it is worth bearing in mind his use for bullets vs what we may use them for in this country, very few of us shoot anywhere near as far as he does (on live game certainly) and those who do are accepting a massive amount of risk which we all know comes with that type of practice, for anyone interested there are a few non-lead bullets being produced by very specialised people for that application, however having had no experience of them I cannot and will not comment on these. For practice like this there is an ethical argument that comes far before we reach the 'will the bullet perform' dilemma regardless of lead or non-lead.





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If a brick is going fast enough it will be lethal too.

Question is how do you get it to the target with sufficient accuracy and velocity.

I suspect that some will be using the 'extra expansion velocity requirement' as their good reason for acquiring a large magnum chambering.

Best of luck to them, as the second part of that was accuracy. A bit difficult to achieve if you close your eyes and flinch the second you get close to the trigger break.

But if you achieve both with ease, then big props to you!
 
I feel it is a pity that Nathan doesn't seem to be putting effort into lead free bullet development. If he, with his undoubted capabilities and religious followers put their combined efforts into proper R&D, the lead free conundrum could be sorted more effectively in a shorter period of time instead of being Luddites and possibly dinosaurs.
Ian
 
Mr Foster seems un aware that poorly placed shots with traditional cup and core projectiles also lead to a slow death. Or as I have seen my self a well placed shot that results in a slow death for reasons I cant explain, heart and lungs turned to mush yet the pronghorn ran 200 yds with a non functional cardio system. Or well placed shots resulting in instant death( the desired result). Animals will not always die as predicted in spite of our best efforts. I always say shot placement is paramount and projectile type of lessor importance ( meaning correct for the game ) not the argument shown in the article.
 
I think there's a valid point being brought up that some non-lead bullets may not have the R&D being put into them. Once it becomes verboten to use lead, what's to stop an unscrupulous manufacturer pumping out some not so well designed lead free bullets at a lower price than the Bergers/Hornady/Sierra mob's offerings. Sure, they might still kill, but probably with a lower DRT than well designed bullets. Are stalkers tight, and will buy the cheapest possible tools? A lot will.
Also, the argument about the kill zone size being decreased because of lack of expansion is valid. Not all stalkers are able to 'thread the needle' with absolute certainty. Lead bullets provides a greater chance of success.
I think the evidence of the French hunters requiring increased dog tracking to follow up wounded or poorly shot animals tells a story that should be heeded imho.
 
I have read Nathan Foster’s article and whilst I cannot see a date, i think it has been around for a while. The original monolithic bullets were tough. They are popular when shooting big game where penetration is key. They are better than old lead cored solids.

But use such a bullet on a thin skinned deer, and unless you put it in the right place, a hard tough bullet can pencil through.

However using the latest generation of non toxic bullets, mostly developed by European manufacturers designed for smaller deer, results work well. They are accurate, expand well and cause quick lethal damage. I have been using Fox and RWS HIT bullets in 7x57 and 7x65r and see no real difference to lead bullets in terms of killing power, but a cleaner carcass.

And there is no splattering of lead fragments throughout the carcass. There is no plenty of good scientific evidence that demonstrates that lead is toxic and harmful. There is good evidence that even in concentrations of 5 micro grams of lead per litre of blood is string correlation to leukaemia. And as hunters leaving gralloch contaminated with lead for wildlife is also unacceptable.

25 years ago we knew the dangers of tobacco and tobacco smoke, yet offices, trains and pubs were filled with tobacco smoke. Now it’s unacceptable and illegal to smoke in a public place. 50 years ago tobacco companies promoted cigarettes as good for your health.

Lead free is on the same journey.
 
I feel it is a pity that Nathan doesn't seem to be putting effort into lead free bullet development. If he, with his undoubted capabilities and religious followers put their combined efforts into proper R&D, the lead free conundrum could be sorted more effectively in a shorter period of time instead of being Luddites and possibly dinosaurs.
Ian
Or we could carry on using lead seeing as it’s not a problem
 
We had the same endless threads in Germany about 8 years ago. Not only are the endless, they are useless.
 
I feel it is a pity that Nathan doesn't seem to be putting effort into lead free bullet development. If he, with his undoubted capabilities and religious followers put their combined efforts into proper R&D, the lead free conundrum could be sorted more effectively in a shorter period of time instead of being Luddites and possibly dinosaurs.
Ian

If he did come out with something, you would need to buy all of his books first before being allowed to buy them and access the load data!

😜
 
Mr F has good stuff to say sometimes. The problem is that he has the same effect on me as Carl Sagan used to, he sends me to sleep before he gets the crucial point across. Soooooo verbose! 😄
Ian
 
For someone who emphasises correct bullet choice, Nathan has definitely highlighted the effect of poor bullet selection in that article that is a good number of years old. What he now should do in the interests of balanced journalism is update the article with the effect of lighter, faster monometal bullets that do not pencil through light bodied deer and reliably drop the target animal on the spot or within a few yards. Unfortunately, despite there being several references to good performance from monometal bullets in his knowledgebase (6.5x55, 308 Winchester) , he has chosen not to demonstrate them in this article. Perhaps he feels that he has climbed onto the pro lead podium and cannot back down, or perhaps it is his passion for long range hunting that is deemed unacceptable in the UK that makes him consider monometal to be suboptimal, I don’t know?? Basically ithe article needs updating!
 
The other thing I would add to this is based solely on my own experience. Having spend over 20 years seeking the “smitten down by the hand of God” bullet performance, I have achieved this quite reliably but never with lead core bullets!!
 
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