Lead restriction proposals - public consultation

[Whitefront]

For at least four years Gamebore has been highlighting in its annual reports (see its filings at Companies House, specifically the section in the accounts on "Principal Risks and Uncertainties"), the prospect of "changes in legislation regarding our current products containing lead" as the second of five major risks, but concluded that "The company has strategies to manage these risks, and the directors are actively investing in new machinery and technology. Gamebore has been at the forefront for the past 25 years in alternative non toxic/biodegradeable products, and we remain committed to investing in the future to continue the business success the company has enjoyed."

This report, for the year ending 31 Dec 2018, was approved by the board of directors on 3 September 2019 and signed on behalf of the board by PD James.

So, was the Gamebore board really dealing with a clearly foreseeable risk and investing in non-toxic/biodegradeable products? If they were, why the unholy panic about a five-year voluntary transition? Exactly how long were they going to wait, before international and national legislation caught up with their lead products? And why are they apparently demanding "support", in their joint letter, when they have been trousering profits for years?

Perhaps we could have a response to these questions from Mr Paul James, director, of Gamebore, and the company's auditors, Streets Audit LLP, of Hull?

 

[StephenToast]

I raised an issue on the 28b which I think is an important caliber to keep alive along with a .410 it got a lot of younger people into shooting. It’s seemingly counterintuitive to me that when we need more young people and women in the game we would move away from small cals.

I love my little 28b and so does my missus she couldn’t reasonable be expected to learn on my 12b due to her diminutive stature. Be a great shame if these became obsolete. What plans are their for small bores?

As for rifles well moving them to non lead is utter pish

I started shooting with a single barrelled 12 bore when I was 8.

Your argument is pish.

 

[User00044]

I started shooting with a single barrelled 12 bore when I was 8.

Your argument is pish.

Are you implying that everyone's ability to deal with recoil is the same or just being boastful ?
When I was a youngster a lot of the fat kids used their old man's 12 gauge , they soon tired from the recoil .

 

[StephenToast]

Are you implying that everyone's ability to deal with recoil is the same or just being boastful ?
When I was a youngster a lot of the fat kids used their old man's 12 gauge , they soon tired from the recoil .

No. Admittedly that post was a little short.

If an eight year old boy can shoot a 12, any "diminutive person" can.

Just because I shot a 12 bore at 8 doesn't mean I was shooting 3 inch 2 ounce cartridges.

The argument that the smaller bores are needed to coach children is just nonsense.

And... Small bores won't become obselete. Just wait. There will be ammunition for them in time.

 

[User00044]

No. Admittedly that post was a little short.

If an eight year old boy can shoot a 12, any "diminutive person" can.

Just because I shot a 12 bore at 8 doesn't mean I was shooting 3 inch 2 ounce cartridges.

The argument that the smaller bores are needed to coach children is just nonsense.

And... Small bores won't become obselete. Just wait. There will be ammunition for them in time.

A couple of shots is one thing and you're right anyone can shoot a 12 gauge. For many people more than that would be punishment even with 21 gram cartridges.
I prefer the carrot to a stick approach , which is why my teenage daughter is using a 223 . I fear a 308 at this stage may detract from her enjoyment .

 

[Liveonce]

No. Admittedly that post was a little short.

If an eight year old boy can shoot a 12, any "diminutive person" can.

Just because I shot a 12 bore at 8 doesn't mean I was shooting 3 inch 2 ounce cartridges.

The argument that the smaller bores are needed to coach children is just nonsense.

And... Small bores won't become obselete. Just wait. There will be ammunition for them in time.

it’s horses for courses, not all young boys or girls can handle the weight of a 12ga gun, it’s not just about the recoil, over gun them and take away the joy of that first experience and you may have lost them to the sport for many years and possibly forever.

Currently no biodegradable wads for 28ga or .410 so the wait may be very long.

it is amazing how many, just like BASC think we all shoot with a steel proof 12ga using HP steel loads.

 

[StephenToast]

A couple of shots is one thing and you're right anyone can shoot a 12 gauge. For many people more than that would be punishment even with 21 gram cartridges.
I prefer the carrot to a stick approach , which is why my teenage daughter is using a 223 . I fear a 308 at this stage may detract from her enjoyment .

I don't buy your recoil argument personally. Young kids, especially first starting out aren't going to be shooting 50 skeet no matter what the size of the gun.

I wasn't a particularly big kid and recoil wasn't an issue for me. My nephew at 12 is shooting my shotgun now when he visits. He might shoot 50 cartridges at pigeons with me. He doesn't complain about recoil.

Admittedly for small children physically handling a full size 12 bore might be more difficult that a .410 but, as I say, there will be ammunition available in time. Have faith.

 

[StephenToast]

it’s horses for courses, not all young boys or girls can handle the weight of a 12ga gun, it’s not just about the recoil, over gun them and take away the joy of that first experience and you may have lost them to the sport for many years and possibly forever.

Currently no biodegradable wads for 28ga or .410 so the wait may be very long.

it is amazing how many, just like BASC think we all shoot with a steel proof 12ga using HP steel loads.

I don't shoot a steel proof 12 bore...

 

[Liveonce]

I don't buy your recoil argument personally. Young kids, especially first starting out aren't going to be shooting 50 skeet no matter what the size of the gun.

I wasn't a particularly big kid and recoil wasn't an issue for me. My nephew at 12 is shooting my shotgun now when he visits. He might shoot 50 cartridges at pigeons with me. He doesn't complain about recoil.

Admittedly for small children physically handling a full size 12 bore might be more difficult that a .410 but, as I say, there will be ammunition available in time. Have faith.

comments like have faith do nothing, I buy a lotto ticket every week with faith but yet to win.

have faith is just, burying your head in the sand.

 

[Liveonce]

I don't shoot a steel proof 12 bore...

What do you shoot then, a 12bore non steel proof 12ga ?

 

[StephenToast]

What do you shoot then, a 12bore non steel proof 12ga ?

Yeah. With SP steel.

 

[StephenToast]

comments like have faith do nothing, I buy a lotto ticket every week with faith but yet to win.

have faith is just, burying your head in the sand.

Being a massive pessimist and refusing to try anything because all help is lost is burying your head in the sand.

 

[Rasputin]

I started shooting with a single barrelled 12 bore when I was 8.

Your argument is pish.

And you probably hit bugger all other than the target someone pointed and held the gun at for you.

Get a life.

 

[Liveonce]

Being a massive pessimist and refusing to try anything because all help is lost is burying your head in the sand.

Who said I was refusing to try anything? I have used steel shot in a 12ga and within sensible target distances be that clay or game it works, granted SP steel is more comfortable to use than HP steel.

However the laws of physics cannot be ignored nor in this country can CIP rules so even if a suitable biodegradable wad becomes available the effectiveness of the 28ga and .410 become very questionable.
The .410 is very popular used subsonic, steel at subsonic velocities will be little better than the 9mm garden gun is now using lead shot.

Being a massive optimist and refusing to look at the physics of ballistics and hoping that a wad manufacture may make what you hope for when they produce in millions for a product that will not sell due to performance and cost is indeed having faith.

 

[StephenToast]

And you probably hit bugger all other than the target someone pointed and held the gun at for you.

Get a life.

I have a life.

It doesn't involve making up false problems because I am scared of change.

 

[Liveonce]

I have a life.

It doesn't involve making up false problems because I am scared of change.

how is it false problems? If you only shoot 12gauge then sure you will encounter no problem in changing to steel shot and biodegradable wads (other than may be cost) but the scope of the change if a total lead ban is implemented is massive.

try shooting a cap and ball black powder revolver with a steel ball.

 

[Liveonce]

Worth listening to from around 16 minutes 45 seconds.

The Steel Shot Episode: Life after lead - Season 2 Epsiode 10 – The GunsOnPegs Podcast – UK Podcasts

For the final episode in Series 2 Chris and George are joined by Paul James, Managing Director of leading cartridge brand Gamebore, to discuss steel shot and the challenges that face the game shooting world ahead of the proposed phase out of lead shot and plastic wads. We've also got a further...

uk-podcasts.co.uk

 

[NullMac]

it is amazing how many, just like BASC think we all shoot with a steel proof 12ga using HP steel loads.

HP steel is not necessarily the advantage that everyone assumes. Drag is a function of the square of the velocity which means that faster you push something it will also slow down faster. So velocity tends to even out with range.

The advantage comes is you are launching large shot (better bc) so high/large game, but if it’s clays it’s debatable if there will be much discernible benefit. You could argue we would be better off with lower velocity, better pellet density and lower recoil.

 

[Sharpie]

OK, I'll probably get some anger for this, but making shotgun cartridges with lead shot is a huge huge industry in the UK. Sold to the world, as well as other local peeps. Who use a lot. It rather makes my slinging lead bullets downrange look a bit pitiful. What, 27 grams of lead out of a shotgun cartridge X 50 or rather more on sporting clays every other weekend, more like 75,. 1.5 kg of lead each time, per person, , scattered over the countryside. You'll all know what a slab of cartridges weighs. Thrown into the environment, never to be recovered and recycled.

V. maybe 100 x 10 grams of rifle bullets on a range day, a few times a year. well that might be 100 of 10 grams and 200 of less than four grams. On a very long day.

Into a backstop that is cleaned up later. Unlike the clay shoots. Or of course the shotgunners who like to shoot feathery dynamic targets at upwards of £25 each. But not eat them afterwards.

How much use in rifles for hunting ? in my case almost nothing. However I eat, or give away, everything that I shoot, and I'd rather not have lead in it. Contractors may use rather more than me, but it's either free issue for them, or tax deductible as an expense, or hardly a great expense in the grand scheme of things. Products are available that work, maybe differently or even better, but they do exist,, and continue to improve.

We have Gamebore still, who make lead shot, very proudly, in Hull. The last remaining shot tower in the UK. I used to use a lot of it, Blue Diamond (couldn't afford the fancier stuff) but switched over to steel a long time ago.

Then Lyalvale who don't have their own, get it in from Italy (I could describe their shot tower) But now they have recently been taken over by Fiocchi I think, so aren't really British anymore..

A couple of others as well.

What are they all doing about biodegradable wads and the five year plan ? @Conor O'Gorman

Well at the moment I suspect that it is a nonsense, they are all cr@p and don't work as well as plaswads for steel, or fibre for lead. Nor do they actually biodegrade to any meaningful extent on land, I've put some out in a quadrat in my back garden and they are still there, a few years later.

Gamebore do still make a steel load with a biodegradable shot cup made from, I think, recycled newspaper. It's not the best, only available in clay shooting loads (where it tends to punch little holes into them, rather than smash them decisively, albeit you get a lot more of them into a case, so its swings and roundabouts) but does still exist. And if you shoot over land where horses and cattle browse, I see no alternative, other than felt wads and lead.

Some links, for the studious:

Lead, lead, glorious lead, nothing quite like it for making you dead, or stupid, a bit knocked off maybe, or your children dim, aggressive or "on the spectrum". Let's not mention the raptors or the food chain.



How it used to be done:



How they still do it a few times/year at Daugavvpils in Latvia (their tower is lower, so they drilled a 19m deep hole beneath) Seemingly no safety Elves required. Must pop over to see it happening.



How it still is being done, rather more sophisticated:



The thing is, all such producers are going to have to secure a supply of steel shot (actually soft iron). It's not particularly difficult to make indeed we have one UK producer who has been doing it for quite a few years.

Let the big boys figure it out, secure investment and extrapolate returns, get dozy CIP to set some new standards, the horror for those who don't have a modern gun prepared for this already (let them shoot bismuth of which there is a limited supply/resource/reserve, or tungsten matrix (tungsten powder glued together with plastic to make it similar density to lead and squidgy through the chokes, the horror).

As for biowads, I don't think we are quite there yet. I think that we might be about 3 years into the five year BASC plan, but it's not looking great.

As for recycling the cases, well I turned around my clay shoot, who used to just burn them in an old oil drum then bury the mess of the steel case heads and other toxic material in a pit. They nowadays get bagged up and recycled, into things like park benches, decking, walkways, all good, and it costs nothing for us, and I presume profitable for them.

 

[Liveonce]

HP steel is not necessarily the advantage that everyone assumes. Drag is a function of the square of the velocity which means that faster you push something it will also slow down faster. So velocity tends to even out with range.

The advantage comes is you are launching large shot (better bc) so high/large game, but if it’s clays it’s debatable if there will be much discernible benefit. You could argue we would be better off with lower velocity, better pellet density and lower recoil.

Fully appreciate the drag problem hence my post #114, penetrations can become an issue with large shot diameter at low velocity.