Lead update.

Some want lead shot gone for live quarry shooting because it’s a difficult sell if contaminated with lead, so if you cannot get it consumed as a food product how is it ethical to shoot it as nothing more than a flying target to be dumped in a big hole on the ground,
The premise, the set of assumptions you base your question on, is false. Therefore the question is irrelevant, because it doesn’t have anything to do with reality. The fact is that if you shot all game with lead alternatives, or even if they were all euthanased in a special super-ethical clinic, people won’t eat it. You’ve made the mistake of presuming that the reason people don’t buy game meat much is because they are concerned that it is contaminated with lead. That is wrong. Completely wrong.

Hypothetically, pheasants, partridge and wildfowl are unusual cases. The legal basis for shooting every other animal has nothing to do with food and the fact that they actually do go to waste in large numbers isn’t an ethical objection.
That same ethical question applies to the entire livestock farming sector. It is not necessary to eat meat, and indeed a significant proportion of meat goes to waste - possibly more than shot game.
As a landowner, here are two alternatives to achieve the same effect: I need to make some money to pay for the cost of living. At approximate current rates, I could either raise and sell 4000 chickens. Studies have shown that at least 200 of them would go to waste and mostly likely approximately 1200. Or I could raise and have shot 100 pheasants for my shoot. Although there is no real evidence to show that any would go to waste, let us presume that they all go to waste. (In fact, perhaps 2-4% go to waste because of not being fit for consumption) Which is ethically worse and why? Throwing 200-1200 shed-raised chickens in a hole or 100 free-roaming pheasants?



you may consider that tenable i am sure WJ and those who follow them would not. Sell can also be export.
What I actually consider is that your entire line of argument is facile, largely wrong and spurious in the extreme. It is one thing to have this sort of ill-informed nonsense from antis, but very disappointing from anyone who shoots.
So they want lead shot legally banned as the voluntary transition was a big flop and to ensure 100% compliance they want it gone for clay shooting also.
 
Not sure I am following your logic, are you suggesting it’s ok to release what 39 to 57 million pheasants each year as flying targets just for them all to go to waste? So long as the landowners can make money?

people won’t eat it, is a very sweeping statement based on what facts?


over the last few years you have had supermarkets saying they will take them if lead free and apparently a large number could be exported if lead free.

They can shoot them with whatever they like, so long as we keep lead for clay shooting.
 
There's no scope for mitigating the bad policy which is about to be implemented because our own shooting organisations, (one large one is particularly prominent), acted against and continue to argue against both facts and the interests of shooters.

What can we do when BASC's own representatives argue against both facts and our interests?

On an earlier occasion, BASC's rep here above insisted to me that there was nothing wrong, on a scientific basis, with a paper that contravened absolutely basic principles of science. The paper used a blatantly unrepresentative sample (and there's no argument over that), to make universal claims about the entire population. It is schoolboy level science and statistics that you can't draw valid conclusions about a population from an unrepresentative sample. Yet, here we had a properly-educated rep who must know better effectively insisting that the world was flat.
If you think I am a 'flat-earther' that's fine by me, I will add it to the list. Anyway, back to terra firma the GWCT's scientists have reviewed the science and I think we might agree that they are probably better qualified than you or I on this topic.
 
If you think I am a 'flat-earther' that's fine by me, I will add it to the list. Anyway, back to terra firma the GWCT's scientists have reviewed the science and I think we might agree that they are probably better qualified than you or I on this topic.
Indeed we can. I attach below direct quotes from GWCT.

“Does the new evidence demonstrate population scale effects occurring in species in the UK?
No, none of the new evidence, except a paper based on computer models, relates to studies in the UK, although a number of species that occur in the UK are shown to be affected.“

“There is as yet little evidence of the impact of lead on other (apart from wildfowl and game birds) species of wildlife. There is also not much knowledge about how lead shot interacts with the environment as it degrades.“

Is this likely to result in population-level effects in any species?
Scientists know that lead shot poisoning can affect birth, death, and survival rates in wildfowl. Because of that, lead shot poisoning is capable of changing population sizes, growth rates, and demographics” Capable but not demonstrated or proven.

This does not amount to sufficient evidence to ban lead ammunition. What research there is is overwhelmingly one or more of the following: methodologically defective, biased, inapplicable to the UK, extrapolations from small, spurious or unrepresentative samples. It does not and has not demonstrated much harm.

Yet, you have continued to insist that papers making wholly unsupportable claims (on a statistical level) are not erroneous. Why on earth you think it is part of your job to keep propagating bad pseudo-science which undermines the interest of your members and all shooters is incomprehensible to me. In precisely the same way, I am baffled by those who insist in the face of the facts that the earth is flat.
 
Indeed we can. I attach below direct quotes from GWCT.

“Does the new evidence demonstrate population scale effects occurring in species in the UK?
No, none of the new evidence, except a paper based on computer models, relates to studies in the UK, although a number of species that occur in the UK are shown to be affected.“

“There is as yet little evidence of the impact of lead on other (apart from wildfowl and game birds) species of wildlife. There is also not much knowledge about how lead shot interacts with the environment as it degrades.“

Is this likely to result in population-level effects in any species?
Scientists know that lead shot poisoning can affect birth, death, and survival rates in wildfowl. Because of that, lead shot poisoning is capable of changing population sizes, growth rates, and demographics” Capable but not demonstrated or proven.

This does not amount to sufficient evidence to ban lead ammunition. What research there is is overwhelmingly one or more of the following: methodologically defective, biased, inapplicable to the UK, extrapolations from small, spurious or unrepresentative samples. It does not and has not demonstrated much harm.

Yet, you have continued to insist that papers making wholly unsupportable claims (on a statistical level) are not erroneous. Why on earth you think it is part of your job to keep propagating bad pseudo-science which undermines the interest of your members and all shooters is incomprehensible to me. In precisely the same way, I am baffled by those who insist in the face of the facts that the earth is flat.
I appreciate you disagree with the science, as reviewed by our very own GWCT scientists on the side of shooting, and I appreciate that you believe they are all 'flat-earthers' and that's fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion.
 
I appreciate you disagree with the science, as reviewed by our very own GWCT scientists on the side of shooting, and I appreciate that you believe they are all 'flat-earthers' and that's fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion.
To be fair to @Apthorpe there are some very good points in his reply, of which I note you've not actually replied to and have appeared to fob him off somewhat.

The science is clearly not all there yet to call for a ban on all lead like the way it appears to be going. Sure, ban the shoots putting thousands of cartridges over land during a day. I can see that somewhat being a risk (although it really isn't documented) but rifles ammo? I haven't seen one argument yet to ban lead in rifles ammo. "Well it's bad for you if you eat it" tell that to the thousands of people who have eaten lead shot game for a considerable amount of time and don't have elevated lead levels.

If people want things banned which do cause real harm, ban cars, petrol/diesel and EV for that matter. Ban smoking, ban drinking (I'm aware this doesn't come under BASC before that's pointed out). There's far worse that goes on in this country than lead. Far more harmful, far more toxic.

Imagine if these anti shooters/hunters and whatever other tree huggers are out there behind this could do if they put their minds towards a cure for cancer or something that would actually help society, not just being involved in a class war (which is always boils down too).
 
I am not as articulate as Apthorpe in getting my view across, but initially was totally against any lead ban, considered the voluntary transition away from lead shot and single use plastic for live quarry shooting as an own goal, which would likely fail, as indeed it has.

However I can see a benefit from banning lead shot, but only for game shooting if that then ensures a market for it that allows for it to all enter the food chain. Totally against it just being shot for sport and then dumped. To ensure compliance then all game shoots should be licensed and the operator responsible for ensuring no lead shot is used or their licence is revoked.

Other than that it should be personal choice to eat pigeons or deer (etc) shot with lead just like smoking is or if selling to game dealers then market forces should decide what their customers want lead free or not.
 
To be fair to @Apthorpe there are some very good points in his reply, of which I note you've not actually replied to and have appeared to fob him off somewhat.

The science is clearly not all there yet to call for a ban on all lead like the way it appears to be going. Sure, ban the shoots putting thousands of cartridges over land during a day. I can see that somewhat being a risk (although it really isn't documented) but rifles ammo? I haven't seen one argument yet to ban lead in rifles ammo. "Well it's bad for you if you eat it" tell that to the thousands of people who have eaten lead shot game for a considerable amount of time and don't have elevated lead levels.

If people want things banned which do cause real harm, ban cars, petrol/diesel and EV for that matter. Ban smoking, ban drinking (I'm aware this doesn't come under BASC before that's pointed out). There's far worse that goes on in this country than lead. Far more harmful, far more toxic.

Imagine if these anti shooters/hunters and whatever other tree huggers are out there behind this could do if they put their minds towards a cure for cancer or something that would actually help society, not just being involved in a class war (which is always boils down too).
I am not inclined to go through it all again to be honest - it's 5 years now and it boils down to people's views and choices. There have been myriad discussions on the science for the last 5 years of the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting - that assessment of the science by GWCT scientists underpins the reasoning for the voluntary transition. It is before my time, but I read that back in the 1990s there was 4 years of voluntary transition away from lead shot in wetlands, again based on the science. Self-regulation was the preferred approach rather than changes in law. Then and now there were differing views on the science. For the HSE review, BASC has been arguing against restrictions on lead shot for live quarry on the basis that there is a voluntary transition, not that there is insufficient evidence of lead shot ingestion in birds. For lead shot for target shooting, lead rifle ammunition for target shooting and live quarry, and for lead airgun pellets, for target shooting and live quarry the arguments against restrictions have been for various reasons including insufficient evidence for various postulated theoretical exposure pathways. Its complex and multi-layered and that is why I recommend people read BASC's full response to the final HSE consultation and come to their own conclusions.


And for an overview of the end of review HSE recommendations that we now await a Defra response on, see this:


Here is a written answer to a parliamentary question on 11 March and note that the HSE was also taking into account "the effectiveness, practicality, monitorability and enforceability of the potential restriction". BASC consistently challenged the HSE on this 'mission creep' - and that explains some of the illogical recommendations - such as a ban on lead shot for clay shooting to enforce a ban on lead shot for live quarry shooting.


We are now in political territory and WWT, RSPB, Wildlife and Countryside Link, CHEM Trust and Wild Justice have been campaigning for a full ban on all lead ammunition within 18 months and demanding a decision from Defra by 13 March (today).

 
I am not inclined to go through it all again to be honest - it's 5 years now and it boils down to people's views and choices. There have been myriad discussions on the science for the last 5 years of the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting - that assessment of the science by GWCT scientists underpins the reasoning for the voluntary transition. It is before my time, but I read that back in the 1990s there was 4 years of voluntary transition away from lead shot in wetlands, again based on the science. Self-regulation was the preferred approach rather than changes in law. Then and now there were differing views on the science. For the HSE review, BASC has been arguing against restrictions on lead shot for live quarry on the basis that there is a voluntary transition, not that there is insufficient evidence of lead shot ingestion in birds. For lead shot for target shooting, lead rifle ammunition for target shooting and live quarry, and for lead airgun pellets, for target shooting and live quarry the arguments against restrictions have been for various reasons including insufficient evidence for various postulated theoretical exposure pathways. Its complex and multi-layered and that is why I recommend people read BASC's full response to the final HSE consultation and come to their own conclusions.


And for an overview of the end of review HSE recommendations that we now await a Defra response on, see this:


Here is a written answer to a parliamentary question on 11 March and note that the HSE was also taking into account "the effectiveness, practicality, monitorability and enforceability of the potential restriction". BASC consistently challenged the HSE on this 'mission creep' - and that explains some of the illogical recommendations - such as a ban on lead shot for clay shooting to enforce a ban on lead shot for live quarry shooting.


We are now in political territory and WWT, RSPB, Wildlife and Countryside Link, CHEM Trust and Wild Justice have been campaigning for a full ban on all lead ammunition within 18 months and demanding a decision from Defra by 13 March (today).

Still nothing from defra as of yet, interested to see what their decision is
 
Still nothing from defra as of yet, interested to see what their decision is
So am I. However, it would not be the first time a Government department over-ran on a (not particularly hard) deadline.

That said, I've had today pencilled into my diary since I read the WJ / Leigh Day latter.
 
Still nothing from defra as of yet, interested to see what their decision is
In June 2023 the HSE proposed its recommendation for a restriction on hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up in England, Wales and Scotland. This was the first restriction HSE has proposed since it took on the role of regulatory agency for post-Brexit chemicals regulations (UK REACH) at the start of 2021. There has not been a Defra response to that recommendation as yet as far as I know.

Lead in ammunition was the second substance subject to review and the next one is the use of per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in firefighting foams.

It would certainly be interesting if Defra went ahead with the December 2024 recommendations (lead in ammunition) and not the June 2023 recommendations (hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up).
 
In June 2023 the HSE proposed its recommendation for a restriction on hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up in England, Wales and Scotland. This was the first restriction HSE has proposed since it took on the role of regulatory agency for post-Brexit chemicals regulations (UK REACH) at the start of 2021. There has not been a Defra response to that recommendation as yet as far as I know.

Lead in ammunition was the second substance subject to review and the next one is the use of per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in firefighting foams.

It would certainly be interesting if Defra went ahead with the December 2024 recommendations (lead in ammunition) and not the June 2023 recommendations (hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up).
It would be interesting, but I'm willing to bet that there's not quite so much high profile lobbying pressure on the tattoo ink side of things.

Or latent threats to spring retained law firms into action for that matter.
 
I appreciate you disagree with the science, as reviewed by our very own GWCT scientists on the side of shooting, and I appreciate that you believe they are all 'flat-earthers' and that's fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion.
You are wrong again here, because you are not paying any attention to the reality. I am not disagreeing with any actual science, as I have pointed out a number of times. It is actually you who keeps disagreeing with the extent of the conclusions that the current state of science informs.
It is not a matter of opinion. It is an elementary and fundamental tenet of science that when performing a study, you need to select a representative sample, in order to be able to reach any valid conclusion about the population. For some reason that is beyond me, you continue to insist to the contrary, when in fact that statement is correct. If you could point out any error it would be more constructive than refusing to contemplate an important reality.

What I have disagreed with is the regrettable state of affairs when a representative of my shooting organisation insists of propagating anti-shooting propaganda, even when they know it is wrong. I am assuming, but I believe it is the case, that you not only have a school-level scientific education but at least two scientific degrees? So I am at a loss to comprehend why such fundamentally deficient publications arguing to the detriment of your members, are something you want to spread. I am entitled to my opinion, but since you are posting here as a representative of BASC, rather than a private individual, there is the question of whether you are really entitled to express opinions inimical to the interests of your employer and its membership as a whole. In most companies, that would be a disciplinary matter.
 
In June 2023 the HSE proposed its recommendation for a restriction on hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up in England, Wales and Scotland. This was the first restriction HSE has proposed since it took on the role of regulatory agency for post-Brexit chemicals regulations (UK REACH) at the start of 2021. There has not been a Defra response to that recommendation as yet as far as I know.
Why would you expect DEFRA to have any view on tattooing?
Lead in ammunition was the second substance subject to review and the next one is the use of per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) in firefighting foams.

It would certainly be interesting if Defra went ahead with the December 2024 recommendations (lead in ammunition) and not the June 2023 recommendations (hazardous substances in tattoo inks and permanent make-up).
It would be very interesting because it would prove that far from our shooting orgs having protected and positively represented our interests, that they have run an unrepresentative, counter-productive, harmful strategy of promoting the spurious campaigning of their opponents - for no benefit to even a single person, unless there has been some dodgy dealing behind the scenes, and to the harm of all, including wildlife. (For the avoidance of doubt, I am not aware of other shooting orgs having put out spurious information supporting anti-shooting interests, but BASC may not be alone in this.)
 
You are wrong again here, because you are not paying any attention to the reality. I am not disagreeing with any actual science, as I have pointed out a number of times. It is actually you who keeps disagreeing with the extent of the conclusions that the current state of science informs.
It is not a matter of opinion. It is an elementary and fundamental tenet of science that when performing a study, you need to select a representative sample, in order to be able to reach any valid conclusion about the population. For some reason that is beyond me, you continue to insist to the contrary, when in fact that statement is correct. If you could point out any error it would be more constructive than refusing to contemplate an important reality.

What I have disagreed with is the regrettable state of affairs when a representative of my shooting organisation insists of propagating anti-shooting propaganda, even when they know it is wrong. I am assuming, but I believe it is the case, that you not only have a school-level scientific education but at least two scientific degrees? So I am at a loss to comprehend why such fundamentally deficient publications arguing to the detriment of your members, are something you want to spread. I am entitled to my opinion, but since you are posting here as a representative of BASC, rather than a private individual, there is the question of whether you are really entitled to express opinions inimical to the interests of your employer and its membership as a whole. In most companies, that would be a disciplinary matter.
I am sorry but I am not interested in a row with you about the science on ingestion of lead shot by a wide variety of bird species in all habitats - whether its methodology such as sample sizes and so forth. This has been reviewed by GWCT. You clearly have your set view that its all 'anti-shooting propaganda' and that's fine. If you disagree with the GWCT scientists about this perhaps take it up with the GWCT.
 
Because Defra is responsible for the UK’s registration, evaluation, authorisation and restriction of chemicals (UK REACH)

That was news to me. I'd assumed that because the HSE's parent government department wasn't DEFRA, that its activities would fall under the responsibility of its parent department. Mind you, it explains where the funds for the countryside are ending up.
 
Why would you expect DEFRA to have any view on tattooing?

It would be very interesting because it would prove that far from our shooting orgs having protected and positively represented our interests, that they have run an unrepresentative, counter-productive, harmful strategy of promoting the spurious campaigning of their opponents - for no benefit to even a single person, unless there has been some dodgy dealing behind the scenes, and to the harm of all, including wildlife. (For the avoidance of doubt, I am not aware of other shooting orgs having put out spurious information supporting anti-shooting interests, but BASC may not be alone in this.)
You have lost me there. I have shared all the BASC updates every step of the way through the HSE review including several calls to action to challenge the various proposals. However, if you are interested in what other orgs are saying feel free to visit the CA, CPSA and NGO websites, for example, for their updates on the HSE proposals. A few snippets are. NGO: Lead exposure poses serious risks to wildlife, domestic animals, and humans, particularly children. This move supports conservation and aligns with existing efforts across Europe. CA: The removal of lead from shooting will confirm the status of game shooters and wildlife managers amongst the foremost conservationists in the UK. CPSA: In early 2025 we will be setting up a working group of CPSA board members, ground operators & partners from the gun trade, to plan this potential key change for our sport in the coming years.
 
You have lost me there. I have shared all the BASC updates every step of the way through the HSE review including several calls to action to challenge the various proposals. However, if you are interested in what other orgs are saying feel free to visit the CA, CPSA and NGO websites, for example, for their updates on the HSE proposals. A few snippets are. NGO: Lead exposure poses serious risks to wildlife, domestic animals, and humans, particularly children. This move supports conservation and aligns with existing efforts across Europe. CA: The removal of lead from shooting will confirm the status of game shooters and wildlife managers amongst the foremost conservationists in the UK. CPSA: In early 2025 we will be setting up a working group of CPSA board members, ground operators & partners from the gun trade, to plan this potential key change for our sport in the coming years.
I emailed the CPSA the other week for any update on -

In early 2025 we will be setting up a working group of CPSA board members, ground operators & partners from the gun trade, to plan this potential

so far no reply.
 
You have lost me there.
I'd lost you long before that when you went to denial mode over what valid scientific study is.
I have shared all the BASC updates every step of the way through the HSE review including several calls to action to challenge the various proposals.
You did do a very good job of sharing those updates. My challenges to those proposals were undermined, however, by you lot failing to challenge things you ought to have challenged and instead accepting as valid things which, at best, were spurious. This was made even worse by the completely delusional decision to announce a voluntary five year process to transition away from lead ammunition - a disastrous policy. It's somewhat tendentious that you're now pretending that a government ban following immediately on the heels of this failure of policy is actually just the HSE acting independently.
However, if you are interested in what other orgs are saying feel free to visit the CA, CPSA and NGO websites, for example, for their updates on the HSE proposals. A few snippets are. NGO: Lead exposure poses serious risks to wildlife, domestic animals, and humans, particularly children.
We all know that lead exposure is harmful - especially to children. Yet the proposals don't address lead as a toxin, they address ammunition only. I'm in the middle of a planning process where government actually requires the use of lead over alternatives in areas where children, birds and domestic animals will certainly be exposed. It's not about lead.
This move supports conservation and aligns with existing efforts across Europe.
How do you know it supports conservation? The GWCT said there was a lack of evidence of this. It might do, or it might have no conservation benefit at all. What are the "existing efforts across Europe"? Yes, the efforts of anti-shooting activists. At last, you're coming clean about this.
CA: The removal of lead from shooting will confirm the status of game shooters and wildlife managers amongst the foremost conservationists in the UK.
A PR posture, in effect. Since lead ammunition has been bumped to the top of the list ahead of far more serious issues, one might rightly be sceptical as to the credibility of shooting orgs' PR claims relating to this.
CPSA: In early 2025 we will be setting up a working group of CPSA board members, ground operators & partners from the gun trade, to plan this potential key change for our sport in the coming years.
They have to, don't they? They've been shafted.
 
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