Lead update.

[Mike L]

It was sarcasm....

It was more that your autocorrect was using basic instead of BASC

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I distinctly remember this winter a few chaps coming and buying thousands of cartridges explaining clearly in their words that no one is going to tell them what to shoot from their guns. I helped them load their vehicles and they had basic stickers in the window!

I've asked several shop owner's over recent years how the transition was going, everyone of them said it isn't happening from what they can see!
They all had basic stickers in the window!

It's a croc, any claim of basic of fighting against a lead ban is an outright lie. The truth is basic has tried to spuriously back pedal and gloat over some success in their back peddling for example to get certain proposed restrictions lifted hoping it mitigates their years of capitulation on the subject of lead ammunition before their peers, not them they claim to represent no but those in office and their pr men!
In all honesty one could easily be mislead into believing they are simply in it for their own ends!
Just another bunch of hoohars that think they can fool the masses but just keep scoring own goals.

I mean why oh why didn't they jump on the fact that it is perfectly legal to cover a roof in lead and any water run off contaminated with lead oxides that enter the water supply times by millions is perfectly okay but lead shot is wrong I'll never know! Unless of course this organisation is one that readily automatically assumes a certain position before those it truly fears!
What a croc....

When do you believe this 'capitulation' began?

 

[jall55]

yes and no , from memory it was only the water soluble type made in Spain that Eley introduced into the U.K. market possibly Bioammo also had something and the gamebore card tube type. But credit to the transition initiative, it resulted in the likes of the earth wads, green core wads, paper tube wads and Hull hydro wads and game bore making theirs in the u.k. But not all are created equal as regards to how long they take to degrade in the open u.k. countryside environment.

The ELEY wads are really good and are well on their way out in 24 hours - the Hydro ones not so - I am picking these things up all over the place !

I wonder what studies have been done for horse / cattle /sheep even deer ingesting these ?

 

[Smellydog]

It was more that your autocorrect was using basic instead of BASC

My autocorrect was not used, I typed basic because that is how I see them.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

My autocorrect was not used, I typed basic because that is how I see them.

I am not looking for a row or to antagonise you but I want to say that I think it's a pity you see BASC like that, given that the Association works hard to protect and promote shooting, and not least on the topic of this thread, that there is no lead ammunition ban despite calls for bans since the 1980s which BASC has held firm against.

 

[enfieldspares]

There is no lead ammunition ban despite calls for bans since the 1980s which BASC has held firm against

Never fall into the mistake of confusing "in spite of" with "because of".

Thinking, believing, promoting that what YOU claim has been the reason for to something to have happened, or not happened, is because YOU actions made it so.

It's leads to self delusion, it didn't work for the Mayans, it won't work for BASC either.

 

[AGR]

This lead argument is set to run longer than the Net Zero argument.

 

[Smellydog]

This lead argument is set to run longer than the Net Zero argument.

That's because they originated from the same substance.
Bull****!

 

[AGR]

However I can see a benefit from banning lead shot, but only for game shooting if that then ensures a market for it that allows for it to all enter the food chain. Totally against it just being shot for sport and then dumped. To ensure compliance then all game shoots should be licensed and the operator responsible for ensuring no lead shot is used or their licence is revoked.

I genuinely don't believe that moving from lead shot will increase sales of game in supermarkets/shops. It has always had a limited market, many people simply don't know how to cook game, and a lot of badly shot game inevitably gets disposed of during processing, another expense to add on. (Personally I prefer to bite into a lead rather than steel pellet.)
As regards licensing, be careful what you wish for. Just another way to government control/interference.
I do have some concerns about the total weight of lead dispersed over farmland on big shoots though. There is extensive research about lead uptake in plants.

 

[enfieldspares]

I genuinely don't believe that moving from lead shot will increase sales of game in supermarkets/shops. It has always had a limited market, many people simply don't know how to cook game, and a lot of badly shot game inevitably gets disposed of during processing, another expense to add on. (Personally I prefer to bite into a lead rather than steel pellet.)

This. As I have always said cui bono. Who benefits?

Look at the timeline of BASC's huge investment in the British Game Alliance (and maybe someone at BASC could tell us how much money that was and if it has yet been repaid and in what amount) which seems to have been an attempt to deflect calls to ban "big bag" commercial shooting on the defence of it was harvesting game for the food chain.

Which would need it to be shot with non-lead as supermarket buyers were at that time saying they would be refusing lead shot birds. So as, again, others have said rather that get these big bag commercial shoots in order everybody gets thrown under the bus with a call to end the use of lead shot by February 2025. Which then removes any defence that could have been raised against any DEFRA calls for a ban made after that date.

A call made by BASC without consultation of its members by a universal ballot of such members on the grounds that a decision of its executive was enough to reverse the previous position it took. And as but days later, as their response showed, had been made without meaningful consultation of the UK cartridge manufacturers.

THIS AND A CONTINUED REFUSAL BY BASC TO PROMOTE THE NEW ZEALAND ALTERNATIVE.

 

[Liveonce]

I genuinely don't believe that moving from lead shot will increase sales of game in supermarkets/shops. It has always had a limited market, many people simply don't know how to cook game, and a lot of badly shot game inevitably gets disposed of during processing, another expense to add on. (Personally I prefer to bite into a lead rather than steel pellet.)
As regards licensing, be careful what you wish for. Just another way to government control/interference.
I do have some concerns about the total weight of lead dispersed over farmland on big shoots though. There is extensive research about lead uptake in plants.

Only time would tell if it would increase sales within the u.k. however was it not the case that being shot with lead made it difficult to export, which was one of the opportunities to increase the sales.

As for licensing, we have to put up with the gun licensing system, so cannot see a game licensing system to be any more arduous and if it stoped the potential miss use of lead shot, hence limiting the scope of any legal ban then the benefits are worth the pain. But likely all too little too late. Think about it the HSE are proposing putting labels of boxes of ammunition yet banning lead shot for all but olympic athletes, because they have already decided we would be guilty of continuing to use lead shot on live quarry.

 

[RJD]

HSE misuse concerns must be aligned to the poor performance of ‘dissolving’ wad steel cartridges (the ‘better’ or less useless the cartridge, the less the wad ‘dissolves’ into sludgey crap) and the therefore need to keep using lead shot for the foreseeable. Personally the efficacy of non lead shot not such that I consider it humane, I genuinely care about avoiding animal suffering so I will continue to use lead for as long as possible.

As for the Game Alliance, BASC sunk hundreds of thousands of MEMBERS money (looks like close to half a mil but opaque) on an interest free loan that should have been repaid 2021but has been kicked down the road a number of times, next one set for 2026.

This is a failed project which is still bleeding cash despite a cast of dozens of ‘names’ jumping in and out and rebrands, it is the absolute text book of ‘jobs for the boys’ or offspring thereof which has tanked, but is funded by BASC members to this day.

 

[Buchan]

What an i.....

When lead was used as make up it was lead oxide.
Lead oxide unlike the metal lead easily can enter the body and blood stream. Unlike the metal lead.

Metal lead especially small fragments can enter the body through action of stomach acid and, it seems, bile.
And as lead in projectiles is exposed to air, each will be coated in a bit of lead oxide.

The paper quoted in the Guardian is straightforward - there has been very little move to non-lead products as part of the voluntary transition. I know some have criticised it, but having read it, it seems a reasonable study.

Lead is poisonous and it's getting into wildlife where it shouldn't. And, critically, the most significant source is due to shooting. We can accept the need to change, or have changed forced. The refusal to change means it will be the latter.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

HSE misuse concerns must be aligned to the poor performance of ‘dissolving’ wad steel cartridges (the ‘better’ or less useless the cartridge, the less the wad ‘dissolves’ into sludgey crap) and the therefore need to keep using lead shot for the foreseeable. Personally the efficacy of non lead shot not such that I consider it humane, I genuinely care about avoiding animal suffering so I will continue to use lead for as long as possible.

As for the Game Alliance, BASC sunk hundreds of thousands of MEMBERS money (looks like close to half a mil but opaque) on an interest free loan that should have been repaid 2021but has been kicked down the road a number of times, next one set for 2026.

This is a failed project which is still bleeding cash despite a cast of dozens of ‘names’ jumping in and out and rebrands, it is the absolute text book of ‘jobs for the boys’ or offspring thereof which has tanked, but is funded by BASC members to this day.

If you have concerns or queries about BASC expenditure you won't achieve much posting about them in this thread - perhaps email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk or raise them at the next AGM?

 

[Smellydog]

Metal lead especially small fragments can enter the body through action of stomach acid and, it seems, bile.
And as lead in projectiles is exposed to air, each will be coated in a bit of lead oxide.

The paper quoted in the Guardian is straightforward - there has been very little move to non-lead products as part of the voluntary transition. I know some have criticised it, but having read it, it seems a reasonable study.

Lead is poisonous and it's getting into wildlife where it shouldn't. And, critically, the most significant source is due to shooting. We can accept the need to change, or have changed forced. The refusal to change means it will be the latter.

Nope, when they ban pesticides and herbicides first. They do far more harm than any metal lead. Otherwise they'd stop using it on roofs. You can add tobacco to that list too.
Untill then it's an attack on shooting, encouraged by the gluttony of large commercial shoots which is where the real issue is!

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Never fall into the mistake of confusing "in spite of" with "because of".

Thinking, believing, promoting that what YOU claim has been the reason for to something to have happened, or not happened, is because YOU actions made it so.

It's leads to self delusion, it didn't work for the Mayans, it won't work for BASC either.

View attachment 411005

That does not make any sense though. To repeat, the fact is that there is no lead ammunition ban despite calls for bans since the 1980s which BASC has held firm against. And this is in the context of @Smellydog referring to "years of capitulation on the subject of lead ammunition" whilst not answering the question "When do you believe this 'capitulation' began?".

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Lead is poisonous and it's getting into wildlife where it shouldn't. And, critically, the most significant source is due to shooting. We can accept the need to change, or have changed forced. The refusal to change means it will be the latter.

Indeed, and many of the comments in this thread seem to be a form of deflection away from the science and reasoning underpinning the voluntary transition away from lead shot for live quarry shooting.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Nope, when they ban pesticides and herbicides first. They do far more harm than any metal lead. Otherwise they'd stop using it on roofs. You can add tobacco to that list too.
Untill then it's an attack on shooting, encouraged by the gluttony of large commercial shoots which is where the real issue is!

There are moves away from the use of all those substances.

As regards, pesticides and herbicides research on grey partridge and impacts on chicks back in the day was challenged - obvious though the impacts are perceived now. And research on lead shot ingestion by grey partridge adults and chicks published in 2005 is still being challenged today.

Tobacco - maybe watch the film "Thank you for smoking".

As for lead flashing this may be of interest:

The rise of lead-free flashing alternatives

Lead-free products grow in popularity due to health and safety issues around weight and toxicity, the rise in market cost and increased lead theft incidents.

glidevaleprotect.com

 

[Heym SR20]

In this months BASC magazine there is a whole article on move to non toxic.

The one bit that I do not agree with is the proposed exemption for small centre fire calibres.

243 - there are plenty of 80 to 85 grain non lead projectiles that shoot accurately and have greater energy (thanks to a higher velocity) than traditional 100gn soft point loads.

These monolithic bullets work very well and will penetrate even our largest deer.

22 Centrefires. - again 50grain monolithic bullets work well in 1 in 12” twists. Things like the 222 and 22-250 may struggle and need to drop down to a 35 to 45 grain non toxic and not sure how readily available such things are yet.

If there is an exemption on smaller calibres it should be mandatory that any carcasses are collected and not left for other wild life to consume.

It is already an offence to knowingly leave or set poisonous substances out for wildlife to consume.

 

[RJD]

If you have concerns or queries about BASC expenditure you won't achieve much posting about them in this thread - perhaps email me at conor.ogorman@basc.org.uk or raise them at the next AGM?

Just in answer to an above question of ‘what happened to game alliance’