Lead update.

[Conor O'Gorman]

Talking to someone from BASC yesterday and their understanding is .22 hornet and above will need to be non-lead. Only skipped through sone of the posts but seem many talking about .22 CF remaining unrestricted?

The other point mentioned was if following any ban, anyone caught with lead bullets would be in possession of illegal ammo?

This may or may not be correct but it was their understanding of documents conveyed internally by BASC

They have got that wrong and may have been confused with earlier HSE proposals (there has been a call for evidence and two consultations since the HSE review started in 2021).

In the HSE final report submitted to Defra and Welsh and Scottish governments for consideration no restrictions have been proposed on small calibres below .243. It has also been proposed that rifle ammunition would need labelling for live quarry or target shooting.

The BASC briefing on the HSE recommendations report is here:

HSE recommendations on lead restriction proposals explained

Read our explanation of the HSE's proposals on restrictions for lead ammunition in more detail, plus BASC's position on each.

basc.org.uk

 

[finnbear270]

rifle ammunition would need labelling for live quarry or target shooting. ??Why?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I should have added that most of the output from the lead works was loaded into barges for transportation, right where the Swans make their nests.

If either of the nesting swans were eating any of spilled lead shot as grit they would have suffered sub-lethal or lethal effects of lead poisoning.

 

[Greenmist]

I done my dissertation on lead shot in shooting ponds over 30 years ago, that is a massive over simplifacation and not really true in a lot of situations.
Was far more an issue for wildfowl and often were mistaking it as food as in many cases shot size was similar to the size of there food so were actively swallowing it as they dabbled.
Very few birds on land will be actively ingesting lead to the same extent.

I spent my summer digging silt and processing it on some very old well shot duck ponds.
Never found a single pellet.
And 1 of the ponds they used to shoot 200 duck on 1 drive, so fairly well shot.
And a lot of the shot would land inaround the pond area.

Believe wot u want but basc have well and truely thrown us under the bus, again.
Will never ever get another penny off me.

Do you still have a copy? I'd be interested in reading it

 

[finnbear270]

If either of the nesting swans were eating any of spilled lead shot as grit they would have suffered sub-lethal or lethal effects of lead poisoning.

Must have been pretty careful loading barges, Swans nested there since I was fishing that spot since I was a nipper.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

rifle ammunition would need labelling for live quarry or target shooting. ??Why?

This is what has been recommended in the HSE report and their labelling justifications are here:

https://www.hse.gov.uk/reach/restrictions/rr-aavi-0821.pdf

 

[Apthorpe]

Indeed, and the problem with lead is when lead is distributed into small grit sized pellets and available in the ground for birds of various species to mistake as grit and eat, then that lead shot gets eroded in the gizzard and is metabolised into toxic lead salts that are absorbed into blood and later deposited in the kidneys, liver, bones etc. with resulting ill effects.

That only happens if the bird eats the lead shot, and there is not clear evidence of that happening at all.

Whether the impact of this on individual birds or their population justifies restrictions relative to other toxic substances impacting those same birds or populations is where the debate lies now - and the days of denying the science as a defence strategy are long over as regards lead shot for live quarry shooting.

The defence strategy is not denying the science, it is highlighting what the state of the science actually is - i.e. that there is not sufficient evidence for an impartial, rational and reasonably intelligent person to conclude that a bam o lead ammunition is reasonable, proportionate or necessary. And certainly not that it is a sufficiently high priority to deal with before bigger issues.
When the people who have assumed the job of defending the use of lead ammunition are making spurious arguments against it, it is hardly surprising that you have people criticising BASC's role in bringing this unnecessary burden onto us.

 

[finnbear270]

Bejazuss!, That must have been a godsend for the waffle merchants.

 

[Morkai]

rifle ammunition would need labelling for live quarry or target shooting. ??Why?

So if you get caught using lead, you can whip out a couple of non lead rounds from your other pocket to show the officer that these are what you shot the the deer with.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

This is what has been recommended in the HSE report and their labelling justifications are here:

https://www.hse.gov.uk/reach/restrictions/rr-aavi-0821.pdf

But there is NO justification in that...

 

[palmer_mike]

But there is NO justification in that...

Very little justification for lots of it.

 

[Deermanagement]

They have got that wrong and may have been confused with earlier HSE proposals (there has been a call for evidence and two consultations since the HSE review started in 2021).

In the HSE final report submitted to Defra and Welsh and Scottish governments for consideration no restrictions have been proposed on small calibres below .243. It has also been proposed that rifle ammunition would need labelling for live quarry or target shooting.

The BASC briefing on the HSE recommendations report is here:

HSE recommendations on lead restriction proposals explained

Read our explanation of the HSE's proposals on restrictions for lead ammunition in more detail, plus BASC's position on each.

basc.org.uk

I hope so and will not be surprised with BASC

Should it be "bullets", and not "calibres" below .243, there'll be a silver lining that will eventually come to light but not worth mentioning at the moment and bringing it too attenstion

 

[paul o']

Well that's one way to ban the common man from owning guns! Just price the components out of there reach !
Any one reloading i have 250 bismuth 25gram H&H carts for sale be perfect to pull apart and reload.

 

[Smellydog]

So a box labeled for hunting you keep using the box but replace the contents lol.
Only in Britain....

 

[countrryboy]

Do you still have a copy? I'd be interested in reading it

Im sure i'll have it somewhere, that long ago could still be floppy disc.


It wouldnt be that good a read, intellectual stuff like that was never my strong point.
And my computer skills were even worse.
Wasnae really very good.
I shudder at the thought of rereading it myself

I never found any pellets in all the silt and the 'control' ponds that were unshot had a higher lead concentration due to the soil/geology.
So i just waffled for 10k words

At the time i was really quite early but their were still other studies u had to review.
With wildfowl the case really was pretty strong due to the way the feed/dabble and shot size often being similar to the feed they often eat.
Infact they'd often be activelly selecting lead.

In theory the same thing could still happen with steel, while u wont get the toxic residue getting ibto there blood.
But im not sure how well a bird would survive with a gizzard full of steel shot. I dunno how effective shot will be in a gizzard at crushing grains/feed.
Or even if gizzard gets jam packed with shot as it wont erode away the way grit does.

On dry ground the case will be far less clear.
At the time i cant remember many studies had already been caried out then on dry ground.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Must have been pretty careful loading barges, Swans nested there since I was fishing that spot since I was a nipper.

If you saw no ill effects in those same swans nesting year after year and producing healthy cygnets than I guess they had no access to the lead shot or it was not a sized lead shot that they would select to eat as grit. If swans eat lead shot they will certainly suffer lead poisoning as per the evidence from many research studies.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

That only happens if the bird eats the lead shot, and there is not clear evidence of that happening at all.

There are hundreds of studies worldwide, including the UK, evidencing birds of various species eating lead shot.

 

[Smellydog]

There are hundreds of studies worldwide, including the UK, evidencing birds of various species eating lead shot.

Aye but this is far worse.

Pollution: Birds 'ingesting hundreds of bits of plastic a day' - BBC News

Plastic pollutants in UK rivers are finding their way into wildlife and moving up the food chain.

www.bbc.co.uk

So who they gonna roast over that one and which pro plastic organisation is going to throw it's members into the fire?

 

[Smellydog]

 

[Ratel]

Even on some "Big shoots" I am dubious of any harm to bird life. A pal is keeper on a 2 big days a week shoot, strong predator control both earthbound and avian (legal) and the place is heaving with small birds. They spin wild bird seed on the tracks and margins and over the 17 years I have known him there are numbers of songbirds and all manner of finches feeding on the ground
In fact they seem more numerous there than anywhere else I know of. My question is "Why aren't they all dead or decimated" as they, according to the so called experts must all have ingested lead. The rifle restrictions are a crock of shi.e as no bird is going to eat a .243 or larger expanded bullet. It's definitely an anti shooting exercise and none of our organisations have the power that they think they have at government level.