I've got a lee breech lock challenger press that I use with the redding comp seating die and I just dont seem to be able to seat bullets consistently with it? With cases all uniformly trimmed, I get the first bullet to desired depth with the micro meter then the very next one can be .10 off? Would I get better consistency with a new press or is there something I'm missing?
Lee bullet seating consistancy
- Thread starter easty3
- Start date
Rutland lad
Well-Known Member
I find variations in brass cause this for me. Lapua and other high end brass are good. Certain other brass gives variable results. Presumably neck tension is better.
What cartridge? What bullet?
Sometimes the seater plugs with seating dies can be a little inconsistent depending on bullet length and other dimensions. I recall an old .222 Lee seater die that struggled with the more modern longer .224 bullets. It physically would not seat them as deep as I needed. This was probably an exception but not all bullets and seater plugs are made equal.
Other things to consider would be things like do you have any play in the breech lock bit where the die goes? I personally do not use quick change bushings that various makers give as options. I like old fashioned die collars which screw in and then you screw your dies in to them all the way until they stop. It takes a few more seconds but it is more precise and fail safe and does not rely on cushioning rubbed seals and stuff like that. Is your locking ring definitely secure and that die is solidly in place?
Also there is a knack to consistently operating the rams on presses so that you achieve similar results time and time again. Cranking it solidly and then gently feathering the next bullet in will result in differences. Try to maintain a rhythm.
Neck tension or consistency of the neck tension is another important factor. If you have too much, you will find the bullets tend not to seat as deep and if you have too little tension in the next case, the bullet will slip in easy and not have any sort of bounce back. Again, it all comes down to consistency.
There are other things but generally it is cosistency of every component and piece of equipment that will see you achieve very accurate seating depths time and again.
Sometimes the seater plugs with seating dies can be a little inconsistent depending on bullet length and other dimensions. I recall an old .222 Lee seater die that struggled with the more modern longer .224 bullets. It physically would not seat them as deep as I needed. This was probably an exception but not all bullets and seater plugs are made equal.
Other things to consider would be things like do you have any play in the breech lock bit where the die goes? I personally do not use quick change bushings that various makers give as options. I like old fashioned die collars which screw in and then you screw your dies in to them all the way until they stop. It takes a few more seconds but it is more precise and fail safe and does not rely on cushioning rubbed seals and stuff like that. Is your locking ring definitely secure and that die is solidly in place?
Also there is a knack to consistently operating the rams on presses so that you achieve similar results time and time again. Cranking it solidly and then gently feathering the next bullet in will result in differences. Try to maintain a rhythm.
Neck tension or consistency of the neck tension is another important factor. If you have too much, you will find the bullets tend not to seat as deep and if you have too little tension in the next case, the bullet will slip in easy and not have any sort of bounce back. Again, it all comes down to consistency.
There are other things but generally it is cosistency of every component and piece of equipment that will see you achieve very accurate seating depths time and again.
Are you measuring from the tip of the bullet to the head of the case?
When seating on any press it's best to use a steady constant press on the lever & hold the lever down solidly for a couple of seconds. I find this helps with seating length consistency.
Ian
Ian
Malxwal
Well-Known Member
Neck tension, if all else is constant; how many times fired, annealed etc ?
Also as mentiond, bullet type and seating plug, ensure you have a seating plug suitable for VLD type bullets if you are using them.
Also as mentioned, where are you taking your measurments ? If measuring tip to tail, you're really measuring variation in manufacturing tolerances in the bullets; better to use a proper comparator and measure from ogive. Variations in seating depth from tip to tail can appear a lot worse if you're seating soft points.
I also use a Breech Lock press with the bushes, and Redding comp dies (as well as Lee dies). Once you setup a die, keep the same bush on it, as they vary quite a bit. I actually find I can produce just as low ES/SD ammunition using Lee dies as the fancy Redding ones.
Also as mentiond, bullet type and seating plug, ensure you have a seating plug suitable for VLD type bullets if you are using them.
Also as mentioned, where are you taking your measurments ? If measuring tip to tail, you're really measuring variation in manufacturing tolerances in the bullets; better to use a proper comparator and measure from ogive. Variations in seating depth from tip to tail can appear a lot worse if you're seating soft points.
I also use a Breech Lock press with the bushes, and Redding comp dies (as well as Lee dies). Once you setup a die, keep the same bush on it, as they vary quite a bit. I actually find I can produce just as low ES/SD ammunition using Lee dies as the fancy Redding ones.
On my Lee dead length seating die the bullet depth is determined purely by the face of the case holder against the face of the die and the bullet seating punch...the press (or anything else) doesn't come into the equation at all. The die could be quite wobbly even hand held but if the case holder face can butt squarely up against the die face that dimension can only be the same.
If you are getting variations in COAL it is could be variations in the bullet tip, unless your Redding die pushes directly on the tip itself.
If the seating punch has a cone in the end to accept the bullet tip, the mouth of the cone bears on the bullet a few mm behind the tip. It is reproducing the dimension between that point of contact and the face of the case holder.
I looked at some Barnes and Hornady polymer tipped bullets and the tips were not even seated in the ends of the bullets the same...you could see light behind the shoulder on some of them and the bullets themselves were correspondingly of differing lengths.
That means that the bullets may all be seated to the same depth but that the COAL may vary. If you measure from the head face to the ogive of the bullet rather than the head face to the tip you may well find less variation.
Alan
I get variations of up to a few thousandths dependent on the quality of the bullets and, as was mentioned, how well the particular bullet matches up to my seating die. In any event, I ignore it. This is not nearly as critical in reloading as neck tension and ignition. I know that new reloaders like measuring things, and it absolutely grates to have anyone suggest that any inaccuracy should be ignored, but the time worrying over a couple thou of seating depth is far better spent shooting. If you don't believe me, get out a box of the factory ammo your rifle likes best and measure the OAL. It's an eye opener...
~Muir
~Muir
There’s 2 types of lee seaters the dead length are great for the above reason and one of the main reasons I like lee dies.
the others work on the case mouth and are not so good
probably a combination of both the seating die (assuming not the dead length) and the valley length though In my experience (120 gr 6.5) bullet length is pretty consistent
flatliner
Well-Known Member
I had this too when I first started reloading, and a comparator solved the problem.
Not to pick a fight, but what problem did it solve? Because you measured them differently, were they then seated to a uniform depth? Or were you just more acutely aware of the inaccuracy? ~Muir
Have you shot the ones you have made?
Can you discern any difference on paper?
Can you discern any difference on paper?
In my limited testing I found that the dimension of the bullet from ogive to base is more likely to be consistent than from ogive to tip, especially with a polymer tip insert.
If there is going to be a an effect on the POI it is going to be caused by the difference of the volume in the case and the "jump to the lands"... so the ogive to case head is likely to be the critical dimension.
I use the [manufacturer's] COAL to set the first one and then reckon that the mechanical contact points of the die and the metal profile are not going to vary bullet to bullet, so the case head to ogive dimension is likely to be the same for the batch.
@Muir has referred in the past to the actual seating depth...the overlap of bullet and neck....having more effect than the ogive to lands dimension. Trusting the bullet seating die to produce the same depth each time rather than tweaking to achieve matching COAL has subsequently been my preferred solution and covers both eventualities.
Alan
flatliner
Well-Known Member
When I started reloading, I used the SAAMI spec COAL as a starting point, and set my seating die to achieve this. I loaded a few rounds, measured them and found a variation in COAL. Readjusted the die, to achieve the correct COAL, loaded some more rounds, only to find the same variation. I then started to question if using inconsistent pressure while seating the bullet was the cause of the variation. The last thing I thought to check was the lengths of the bullets, from base to tip. I started using a Sinclair comparator nut and found that the base to ogive measurements were more consistent that the base to tip measurements. So since then I've a comparator when setting seating depths.
So, in answer to your question,it made me aware of what the cause of the variation in COAL was. And I now realise that if I had measured the CBTO of those initial rounds, I would have found that they were seated to a consistent depth,even though the COAL measurements varied.
Well, then you found a way to get the most useful information regarding OAL: The base of the bullet to the primer. When I started reloading, seating depth was given. For a 30 caliiber bullet it might read ".285" or the like. This was obtained by measuring the length of the bullet and the case, and subtracting the desired seating depth to get the OAL. This sounds like seating to an OAL but the focus is on the internal workings such as neck tension and powder chamber volume, rather than distance to the lands. (ugh) A far more valuable angle of attack when it comes to seating strategies.
The problem comes when you aren't using high grade bullets. Every LOT of bullets is slightly different in length, ogival shape, weight. As you mentioned in the first few sentences of your post, when you simply measured using the comparator you found variations. This was my point. Unless the OP is using high grade bullets and willing to go buy more gear, he is still constrained by equipment and technique.
I have a good friend whom I have been 'coaching' in reloading. He had a small melt down when he found out I didn't use a comparator. He said, "WTF!!!??!!?? I rely on you to teach me this stuff and you don't even DO it right!!"
I've just never found that a few thou in seating depth one way or another, mattered much. ~Muir
Totsy
Well-Known Member
I have the exact same equipment as you Easty3, with that same problem. I have found today that using Yorrics method of holding the lever at the bottom of the stroke for a few seconds gives consistent seating +/- 0.001" which is the variance of the bullets I've measured anyway.
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