Lee collet neck sizing die

Malxwal

Well-Known Member
I have a Lee deluxe die set, with a collet neck sizing die which I have no experience of using. I have a batch of new brass, fired once in my rifle, and was pondering neck sizing this new brass using the Lee collet die instead of FL sizing.
Experiences/advice for/against welcome.
 
I always full length resize.

Muir observed that if you full-length resize every time, including new brass before first firing, you are being consistent throughout all cycles of firing the brass which made sense to me.

Alan
 
I did some tests using various dies and tools using identical charges and components in the same rifle on the same day. A P-Hale M81 Classic in .270 WCF.

I used:

A) Standard RCBS dies Two Die Set to full length size and then the standard RCBS seating die to seat without crimping;
B) Lee Collet Neck Size and then the standard RCBS seating die to seat without crimping;
C) Wilson dies in an arbor press;
D) Standard RCBS with light Lee Factory Crimp die;
E) Lyman 310 Tool.

All shot on same day on 6 October 2012. Speer 150 grain Hot-Cor and a moderate, as suggested by the manuals, loading of IMR-4350.

Results at 100 yards were:

A) Best at 1"to 1 1/2"group;
B) Equal to at 1" to 1 1/2"group with A);
C) Not worth the effort not as good a group as the standard RBCS without crimp;
D) A 2" group;
E) A 3" group. OK as an "emergency use" say if you'd run out of loaded cartridges whilst away stalking but you could source primers, powder and bullets to re-fill the fired cases you did have. But the group was worse that all of A), B), C) and D).

SO IMHO it's worth trying but in my rifle in made no improvement in group size with my load recipe but might in yours as your results may be different.

Would I go and buy such a die if I didn't have one in that calibre? No. In fact I sold it on to someone else. But as you do have one it it's interesting to try it.
 
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I always use one and have quite a bit of brass that has never seen a FL die. I load for a Blaser and was told I couldn't neck size but so far, maybe somewhere over 2000 rounds, I've had no problems. I have some brass that has been loaded a lot of times using only the Lee die, probably over 10 times and more likely nearly 20 times, and it all goes bang with no problems.

In the end it probably isn't any worse or better for accuracy but it is handy as I don't need to mess about with lube on the cases and that's why I use it.
 
I have a Lee deluxe die set, with a collet neck sizing die which I have no experience of using. I have a batch of new brass, fired once in my rifle, and was pondering neck sizing this new brass using the Lee collet die instead of FL sizing.
Experiences/advice for/against welcome.
That’s pretty much what I do except that I’m always using someone else’s once-fired which I’ve full length resized. From then on I’m where you’re at & am using a LEE CNSZ die on the 3rd firing.

Apart from the immense time saving, there isn’t any practical difference between resizing or using a CNSZ every time. The profile of the case is formed by either the die or the chamber so every case in a batch turns out the same in the end.

The argument seems to turn on whether the CNSZ imparts the same neck tension every time as an FLR die does. Some advocate crimping to standardise the pressure build & consistency at ignition. Everyone has their own opinion. If you believe in these theories then try them out.

I go for the labour-saving & non-messy approach of neck sizing. Cases stretch very little using a CNSZ die rather than a FLRSZ die so there’s less trimming needed. The cases are also worked less so last longer with fewer neck splits.:roll:

 
Thank's Caorach for jogging my memory. I remember now...that's the sole reason I went and bought one. I did then sell it on...but for sure no longer lubing is a huge gain.

I don't need to mess about with lube on the cases and that's why I use it.

However as at the time I had two rifles in .270 WCF and as cartridges fired in one sized with the Lee Collet die wouldn't chamber in the other that's why in fact it was sold.

But then after reading a thread here, I started using Imperial Wax and realised that, being less "faff", it negated my only reason for wanting a Lee Collet die in the first place.
 
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The Lee Collet has a lot going for it - easy and quick to use, no lube needed, gives very concentric sized necks including straightening out of true ones, suits a range of brass thickness and also replicates the effects of a conventional die where expansion is done separately using a mandrel. It is so good in these respects many top US and Canadian long-range precision shooters use a combination of the Lee Collet and a body die (ie a full-length die that doesn't touch the neck) to get the combined benefits of precise shoulder bumping and the Collet's strengths in the neck bit. They work the brass a lot less than conventional dies so work hardening is less and brass life better in some (slack) chambered rifles.

There are potential downsides:

1) as is so often the case, early examples back in the 1980s were really well made. Current ones often have 'tight' sleeves, and collet tines with sharp edges that score the neck deeply. A bit of polishing work is often required to overcome these production failings.

2) some people seem to find them hard to set up in the press and/or think they don't provide 'enough' neck tension - neck tension is usually less than from a standard FL die, but that is often way too much. The hard to set up issue is another result of a poorly made die in some cases where the sliding collet is such a tight fit in the die body that it crushes / telescopes the case shoulder before it slides internally and closes the collet tines on the case-neck.

3) many factory rifles have marginally unconcentric chambers - FLS is always better in such cases and will give more consistent results in terms of groups. (This applies to all forms of neck-sizing not just the collet.)

4) In most cartridges with significant body taper and shallow shoulders, brass 'flows' forwards under firing pressures and due to internal forwards pressures on the unburned front part of the charge during the early part of the burn. If full working pressures are being used - ie in the mid to high 50,000s psi - the shoulder will move forwards noticeably in a single firing. Neck sizing (by whatever method) alone will very quickly see some rounds hard to chamber having become a longitudinal crush fit in the chamber (ie marginal negative headspace). There are three results from this condition. The mechanical chambering and extraction issues as it affects the fired case too; inconsistency between rounds some still having marginal headspace clearance in the chamber, others not; 'negative headspace' in itself usually reduces precision in itself, although occasional rifles turn up that do better with it. I have also seen claims that crush fit-case cartridges produce higher pressures than those that have the optimal 0.001" shoulder to chamber clearance / headspace, but don't know if these claims are backed up by proper testing.

Unless loads are really hot, it is the shoulder movement that causes the problems, not lower case-body expansion. I use Forster Bushing-Bump dies on my long-range 223 and 308 FTR rounds and this is a neck-size + shoulder 'bump' (ie pushed back) job only, the case-body below the shoulder untouched by the die. This works very well and despite running at over 60,000 psi in both cartridges, I get multiple loadings out of the cases and eventually scrap them without ever having done a full/length (body) size. They chamber and extract very easily. (Being custom built rifles they have very concentric chambers of course.) I have experimented with the bump-die with no bushing in (ie shoulder only sized) and a Lee Collet and obtained equally good results and in some other cartridges use a Redding 'body die' and the Lee Collet as a combination.

IF you have a well chambered rifle, good brass, AND run at low pressures for the cartridge, neck-sizing alone can be very effective and the Collet die is one of the best ways of doing this. In years past for short-range range work I did a lot of sizing with the collet alone using a Lee Hand Press and with very mild loads got excellent results and multiple loadings / firings without any need to full-length size. Revisiting the Collet die a year or two back on 260 Rem, I found that with heavier loads (full-pressure but not unduly hot) shoulders moved enough on a single firing to make this method on its own sub-optimal.
 
Similarly to Laurie above I used a collet die on a 243 with quite hot loads on once fired brass and had about 50% that were hard to chamber and a few that just wouldn't at all. Went to FL (or the Forster neck bushing/shoulder bump dies for target rifles) and haven't had any issues at all.
 
Thank's Caorach for jogging my memory. I remember now...that's the sole reason I went and bought one. I did then sell it on...but for sure no longer lubing is a huge gain.

To be honest not having to lube is probably the only real world difference between dies unless, as you found, you have problems chambering neck sized ammo. I was told that as my Blaser didn't have much leverage on extraction so neck sizing was the road to ruin but, fundamentally, I'm lazy and I also realise that most of what is said on the internet is written by some 11 year old kid. So, I gave the neck sizing a punt and it just worked. I use Lapua brass in a 308Win and I take the brass straight from the box and load it up and after that it is neck sized. In the past I had a book load that, after firing a very many of them, I discovered was giving me 3000fps out of the Blaser with a 150 grain bullet. There were no pressure signs and many of those cases were loaded at least 10 times with only neck sizing. However I only load for the one rifle so I can see how you might run into trouble with two rifles having different chamber sizes.

However, for many people giving neck sizing a try is well worth a punt as it saves a lot of messing about and some folks just want to go stalking rather than fiddle around at reloading.
 
no lube
extended brass life
no lube
faster resizing/reloading
and, oh......no lube

I neck size pretty much everything until there is sticky chambering
in one cartridge I am over 12-15x firings (Norma 270, 54.5gr N160, CCI200 130gr Interlocks)
Not hot, not mild
 
Will find out tomorrow if there are any discernable ill effects. I neck sized thirty once fired cases using what appears to be a brand new and unused collet die.
 
Well, brass is once fired and neck sized, not cleaned, length checked, chamfered. Second firing using loads of 42.3 N160 behind 87gr Vmax showing ES of 1, SD of 0.5. Small representative samples of two different seating depths, and not wholly attributable to the collet die ( if anything I would have liked a tad more neck tension). But obviously not bad.
 
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