Lee Enfield No4 Mk1/2 info

[BobWells]

Hi all, hope someone can help me here.
I’m looking at buying the above rifle, everything seems ok, I’ve done headspace check with a factory case, with a fired primer partially inserted and closed the bolt, the case remains proud .001”, the rim of the case is .060” thick.
The big question is the barrel which is free in all directions at the muzzle end (free floating) someone has told me this is correct on the Mk1/2.
Anyone on here got info would be most appreciated.
TIA Bob

 

[NB568]

The Enfield, No3 and No4 I believe, should have upward pressure at the end of the barrel. You tube/internet has a variety of articles under the heading on Lee Enfield accurizing (excuse the american english).



The above YouTube channel has a wealth of information about bedding, packing and general accuracy. I made the mistake of removing the wood from a very accurate, FTR, No4 and it’s never shot quite as well since. I thought I was doing good in oiling the wood but should have left well enough alone. I was managing V bulls at 500 yards with open sights.

They are easy to reload for and a lot of fun to shoot.

 

[BobWells]

The Enfield, No3 and No4 I believe, should have upward pressure at the end of the barrel. You tube/internet has a variety of articles under the heading on Lee Enfield accurizing (excuse the american english).



The above YouTube channel has a wealth of information about bedding, packing and general accuracy. I made the mistake of removing the wood from a very accurate, FTR, No4 and it’s never shot quite as well since. I thought I was doing good in oiling the wood but should have left well enough alone. I was managing V bulls at 500 yards with open sights.

They are easy to reload for and a lot of fun to shoot.

Thanks bud, I’ll take a look at the YouTube vids.

 

[trickie]

Don’t forget to inset a live round into the muzzle if it fits lol the way to the case, the barrel is at or close to end of life, it may of course still shoot well.
Then remove the bolt insert the same round into the breach, it should only go in (under light pressure only) about 2/4 to 3/4 of the length of the case. If it goes all the way then the chamber is worn and maybe close to end of life (caveat see above).

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Join Home - Lee Enfield Rifle Association they are very knowledgeable guys.
Regards
JCS

 

[Twodogs]

Gun Boards Lee Enfield forum is also a mine of information, just need to ask.

The Lee-Enfield Forum

For the fans of the Lee Enfield line.

www.gunboards.com

Importantly, from a collectors perspective anyway, do all the numbers match? As a1/2 should have a numbered magazine.
Make sure it does not have DP or ZF anywhere or a star stamped on the Knox form.
The barrel should not be free floating as previously stated.
Interesting methodology of checking CHS, not come across that one before.
If you go to the above site and post pictures you will get most the answers you want.

 

[BobWells]

Gun Boards Lee Enfield forum is also a mine of information, just need to ask.

The Lee-Enfield Forum

For the fans of the Lee Enfield line.

www.gunboards.com

Importantly, from a collectors perspective anyway, do all the numbers match? As a1/2 should have a numbered magazine.
Make sure it does not have DP or ZF anywhere or a star stamped on the Knox form.
The barrel should not be free floating as previously stated.
Interesting methodology of checking CHS, not come across that one before.
If you go to the above site and post pictures you will get most the answers you want.

Thanks bud, the magazine has the correct serial number, although the bolt number is different, but I believe that is quite common for the refurbished Mk1/2, the bolt head is No2.
I’ve shot the rifle and it comfortably groups 4”.

 

[Twodogs]

The bolt number should be the same as the body number. Lee Enfields were not plug and play like many others and the bolts were matched to the body.
Any conversion from Mk 1 to Mk 1/2 would have been done at a factory, the rifle should have gone in with its bolt and left with the same bolt, no need to change. The upgrading was all around the trigger hanging.
I would suggest that for reasons unbeknown the bolt has been changed post conversion.
The bolt head size is somewhat irrelevant as the sizes, in some cases quite considerably, overlap.
As you do not have the original bolt you should check locking lug engagement. Full engagement on the small lug only is not good.

 

[Dalua]

Don’t forget to inset a live round into the muzzle if it fits lol the way to the case, the barrel is at or close to end of life, it may of course still shoot well.
Then remove the bolt insert the same round into the breach, it should only go in (under light pressure only) about 2/4 to 3/4 of the length of the case. If it goes all the way then the chamber is worn and maybe close to end of life (caveat see above).

Interesting - I can understand that if a .311 bullet fits into the muzzle, it suggests that there's no rifling left there - though rifle barrels generally wear from the hotter end first - i.e. around the lead.

I've not heard about any problems with chamber-wear. Given that military-spec chamber are often (relative to target, or even sporting ones) enormous, I'd expect an unfired factor-round simply to drop entirely in to any L-E chamber. I've never tried it, though!

 

[BobWells]

The bolt number should be the same as the body number. Lee Enfields were not plug and play like many others and the bolts were matched to the body.
Any conversion from Mk 1 to Mk 1/2 would have been done at a factory, the rifle should have gone in with its bolt and left with the same bolt, no need to change. The upgrading was all around the trigger hanging.
I would suggest that for reasons unbeknown the bolt has been changed post conversion.
The bolt head size is somewhat irrelevant as the sizes, in some cases quite considerably, overlap.
As you do not have the original bolt you should check locking lug engagement. Full engagement on the small lug only is not good.

Ok, I’ll do that thanks

 

[Twodogs]

Interesting - I can understand that if a .311 bullet fits into the muzzle, it suggests that there's no rifling left there - though rifle barrels generally wear from the hotter end first - i.e. around the lead.

I've not heard about any problems with chamber-wear. Given that military-spec chamber are often (relative to target, or even sporting ones) enormous, I'd expect an unfired factor-round simply to drop entirely in to any L-E chamber. I've never tried it, though!

The bullet down the muzzle test really only shows if the bore at the muzzle is not cylindrical, nothing to do with rifling depth.
The muzzle wear is normally attributed to wear caused by pull through cord frictioning against the bore. Anybody ex military will know that rifles get cleaned many many times throughout their life, fired or not.
Also need to consider that the LE’s were manufactured by numerous different manufacturers over a period of many years so tolerances varied considerably.
To the best of my knowledge chamber wear is not an issue with LE’s. As @Dalua says a factory round should chamber fully, its forward progress being arrested by the forward edge of the rim contacting the rear of the chamber. The .303, a rimmed round, does not chamber on the case shoulder and generally there is not enough length in a projectile to enable it to be securely loaded in a brass case and even get anywhere near the rifling.

 

[trickie]

I can’t believe you saying that rope style pull through causes ware in the muzzle of a steel barrel

I served for 24 years, and as a result have cleaned my L1A1 more than once or twice

 

[enfieldspares]

The thing about many No4 rifles is that many were buggered about with either by Fulton, by Alfred J Parker and by others. Each had variations on the what that firm believed the "best" bedding scheme. Fully floating, part bedded, bearing on point X, bearing on point Y or whatever. So whilst AFAIR as made at the various factories there should be a slight pressure at the nose on these buggered about with ones the pressure aka the bearing can be here or there or not at all.

So what to do? Simply as with any other rifle! Shoot it! If it puts all into 1 1/2" or 2" at one hundred yards buy it. If it does it and slightly stretches the cases then, as long as that is safe, then so what. And as another well rightly said by stripping out what's inside such as sheet cork, or taking down you may be upsetting what once someone paid good money for and got good accuracy from. Proceed with care!

These things all have some leeway and tolerance as after all it is a military rifle and designed to work with all ammunition be that British .303, Australian .303, Canadian .303, Indian .303, South African .303. The "powers that be" would all have been painfully aware of the issues with the Ross rifle in WWI and ammunition quality causing problems as ammunition tolerances were relaxed in war production.

Therefore as said. Ask to shoot it with good quality ammunition (that be factory ammunition or handloads) of known accuracy. In factory HXP is poor but South African PMP was good. I have never used Privi Partizan so cannot speak of that. Put the gun to a target. The only fair test the only worthwhile test IMHO for a No4. All else is navel gazing.

 

[Twodogs]

I can’t believe you saying that rope style pull through causes ware in the muzzle of a steel barrel

I served for 24 years, and as a result have cleaned my L1A1 more than once or twice

Remember that the L1A1 had a flash eliminator on the end of the barrel so the crown of the barrel was not affected by cord wear or any other damage for that matter. Most early flash eliminators had five prongs, these were generally replaced by three prong ones. Any rifle you had was more than likely not not on its original flash eliminator.
Soft things do cause wear, the rock on popular climbing routes is often won to a mirror like finish, caused by hands and rubber soled climbing shoes.

 

[Harry mac]

I can’t believe you saying that rope style pull through causes ware in the muzzle of a steel barrel

I served for 24 years, and as a result have cleaned my L1A1 more than once or twice

Cord wear on .303 barrels is definitely a "thing".
As for a non-matching bolt; on a LE, that would be my deal breaker, no matter how good the rifle looks.

 

[enfieldspares]

Cord wear on .303 barrels is definitely a "thing".
As for a non-matching bolt; on a LE, that would be my deal breaker, no matter how good the rifle looks.

Yes. There was even a special mark for it that an armourer could strike onto the thing. So that a subsequently issued soldier didn't get the blame for something he'd not done.

The matching bolt thing on any Lee is to my mind not a deal breaker as the thing uses a separate bolt head to headspace on and those would have been and were replaced.

And in truth other than the obvious difference in the "typeface" and dimensions of proof marks an owner would not know if the bolt handle were sympathetically numbered with matching "typeface" stamps.

As said my bottom line is how does it shoot? It can be all original in every aspect, like a Ishapore 1944 No3 Mk1* that I had. But it wouldn't hold five inches at 100 yards until we put a South African new reserve barrel on it. Then it'd do around and about three inches. But still not brilliant.

 

[Harry mac]

I've got one of those South African barrels on my MkIII*.
Fnnily enough, when I first had it done, the rifle grouped terribly, but after a while it settled dow and it now shoots really well.

 

[John Duxbury]

There are a million old .303's in various states over here, and there is no point treating them as if they just got out of the army - all of them have had considerable lives either target shooting or hunting, and they all have been fiddled and messed with, improved , altered by many owners since the fifties. The only way to know what the story is with a particular rifle is shoot it.
I have had a bunch of them myself. My first one as a young man shot bullets buzz sawing end for end. The one I have at the moment I just fitted a peep sight to it and the first group at 100y was a one inch group.

Oh, and they are not called "Enfields". Only Americans on youtube call them that for some reason. They are Lee-Enfields. At all times. Unless they are ".303's."

 

[Pedro]

Accuracy is definitely a thing when you buy any rifle. But with Lee Enfields and similar age mass produced military rifles, they are predominantly manufactured so the relatively inexperienced Tommy can hit a man-sized target between 300 and 600 yards away. The tolerances did differ between manufacturers and in any case, they left those tolerances a little slack to compensate for the mud and suchlike getting in, but still being able to chamber and shoot rounds. There's also the fact that they were churned out in ever increasing numbers at particular times when demand was high and I guess quality control was one thing that was, at least partially sacrificed, along with some fittings such as magazine cut-offs.

So any Lee Enfield, even when new may or may not be super accurate (and very few as accurate as any rifle made today). Particularly accurate ones anyway were often side-tracked to be sniper rifles. Although there are competitions and indeed some are still used for stalking and in Afghanistan and such places you may well come across some being used for their original intention, the main reason many people own and use them today is because they like to own them, they like to shoot them and they like making big noises! If they make holes in paper quite near each other, that's an added bonus!

How all those soldiers came home with no hearing loss is a mystery to me.

 

[enfieldspares]

Accuracy is definitely a thing when you buy any rifle

Each rifle when made was shot. That's definite. The reason was to get the sights correctly aligned and to check on the thing's accuracy. When made there was a "diagram" which is what they called a group that each rifle from an Enfield Rest had to make.

It's quite big.

Reynolds says this of the SMLE: All rifles were tested for accuracy by the Small Arms Inspection Department at 100 feet, and 10 per cent were also fired at 600 yards. All rifles were fired from a special mechanical rest, known as an Enfield Rest, and a special telescope layer was used for laying the aim. The Enfield Rest was designed to simulate the conditions under which a rifle would be held when fired from the shoulder,and was provided with hand wheel adjustments for laying an aim.

Trial shots were first fired and, if necessary, the foresight was adjusted laterally, or replaced by one of a different height, until the shots on the target were within the required limits. Five rounds were then fired, and four of the five shots had to be contained in a rectangle 1 in. broad by 1½ in. high.

Rifles which failed this test were rejected.

At 600 yards ten shots were fired, nine of which had to fall within a 2-ft. circle.

He then writes of the No4: For the No. 4 Rifle, the accuracy test was the same at 100 feet. Ten per cent of all rifles were then fired at 200 yards when six out of seven shots had to fall inside a rectangle 6 inches by 6 inches, the point of mean impact having to be within 3 inches of the point of aim in any direction.

Ten per cent of rifles fired at 200 yards were again fired at 600 yards when six out of seven shots had to be in a rectangle 18inches by 18 inches, the permissible deviation of point of mean impact being 9 inches up or down, or left or right."

Those that made a group a lot smaller were, yes, put aside for further assessment for use as No4(T) conversion. Reynolds says of the No4(T) "candidates" this: "The rifle, with telescope fitted, was then submitted to its accuracy test, which was to place seven out of seven shots into a 5-in. circle at a range of 200 yards. When possible, rifles were also tested at 400 yards, when six out of seven shots had to go into a 10-in. circle."

Here's a link to Reynolds - it's what we had before Skennerton!

https://stephentaylorhistorian.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/the-lee-enfield-rifle-egb-reynolds-1962.pdf

Now given that the last Lee Enfield was made in the UK in about 1955 they've had possibly the chance of being used with cordite ammunition, or corrosive primers and not cleaned or...maybe worse...cleaned with powdered pumice and etc., etc.. So as I said and others said the only proof of worth as a working rifle is shoot it. Yes you can tweak with .311 bullets or .312 bullets bit beyond that what it does on the target is the best it'll ever be,