Legal justification for charging for 1:1's?

[Twodogs]

Sent in my FAC to have it updated, the removal of several previously sold rifles. At the same time applied for a different calibre as a 1:1 replacement for one of these. I did not send in any fee as I was not increasing the number of items on the FAC.

I received this response:
I am in receipt of your variation but afraid that it will attract the normal fee of £20.00.
As far as I can see the disposal of the 2 303’s that you used to possess was in June 2020 and August 2020, over a year ago which can no longer be used for a one-for-one variation.

The rifles in question were disposed of as quoted but I was unable to get the FAC updated as the FAC licensing dept was not taking variations, due to Covid, at the time and has only just recently started taking them.

The HO guidance states the following.
10.69 The certificate holder should submit their firearm certificate, along with the completed Form 202, and, where appropriate, the fee, to the firearms licensing department. A fee is payable only in respect of variations which increase the number of firearms to which the certificate relates: if the holder wishes to dispose of one firearm and replace it with another then no fee is payable .

10.71“One for one” variation refers to firearms that are authorised to be acquired following the disposal of a firearm or a request to change an existing authority to acquire.
There is no set time in which the certificate holder must apply for a replacement authority once their firearm is disposed of.
Applications for “one for one” variations should be made by the certificate holder submitting their firearm certificate together with a completed Form 202 to the police firearms licensing department. Such variations are processed free of charge.

I am unable to find anything that introduces any time limits. If there is such please can someone point me in the general direction.
Are any other forces adopting this procedure?

Any advice greatly received.

 

[mealiejimmy]

Just another admin person that doesn't know the law.
Enlighten them - but gently

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Twodogs]

Doh, left this out the above post.

HO. guidance Variations
Para 20.3. No fee is payable on variation:
a) if the total number of firearms to which the certificate relates is not increased;
b) in respect of amended or variation of conditions;
c) in respect of ammunition alone; or
d) when a firearm certificate is renewed at the same time.

20.4. In accordance with section 32(1)(c) of the 1968 Act, a fee is payable for a variation (other than when the certificate is being renewed at the same time) that increases the number of firearms to which the certificate relates. No fee is payable where the two elements of a “one for one” variation take place at the same time; that is one firearm is exchanged for another at the same time.

20.5. Where a certificate holder who has disposed of a firearm makes application for a variation upon disposing of the firearm this will not normally attract a fee. This is usually within the seven days allowed for advice of the disposal, although this time may vary between police forces and depend on circumstance. Timings should be checked with the relevant licensing department.

 

[Colonel Rimfire]

I had a similar experience recently after selling off my 10/22 (thank goodness) after looking at my local authority website (Met) it states you have 7 days from selling or disposing of a firearm in order to apply for a 1 to 1 anything after that you have to pay £20. only realized this on the 7th day. Probably a good thing in my case, as at one point I had 14 rifles now I'm just down to 2 rifles and a shotgun, I have a problem, I find it hard to walk out of a gunshop without buying a gun.

 

[Twodogs]

The author of the email quotes their position as:
Firearms & Explosives Licensing Officer

 

[Alantoo]

£20.00 may not have covered the man hours devoted to this thread even at minimum wage rates...maybe just pay it?

Alan

PS sorry if it came over as unsympathtic but I wish some body was around to remind me not to sweat the small stuff more often...it would save me a lot of wasted effort!

 

[Twodogs]

The value, in the big picture is small fry, it is the process I am exploring.

Useless aside, if half of all FAC and or SGC holders (586,351 as at March 2021) applied for a variation in any one year and were charged £20 this would amount to over 11 million pounds to the government.

 

[Alantoo]

The value, in the big picture is small fry, it is the process I am exploring.

Useless aside, if half of all FAC and or SGC holders (586,351 as at March 2021) applied for a variation in any one year and were charged £20 this would amount to over 11 million pounds to the government.

Here is another £5.00 worth...you have already quoted the 7 day bracket would not normally attract a fee. Disruption to normality by the Pandemic aside...I assume that it is simply a straightforward admin charge for having to access and amend your licence details twice rather than being able to do it just the once...

As far as the big picture goes...I have always been intrigued in this day and age of "cost of everything..." that one for one variations didn't attract a charge for the clerical time they obviously involve.

The implication being that if your estimated number of variations are being carried with out no charge, the taxpayer is paying the 11 million pounds

Alan

 

[finnbear270]

Acsessing someones details takes about 15 seconds over a radio call for a roadside check, how much quicker in the office?

 

[25 Sharps]

The value, in the big picture is small fry, it is the process I am exploring.

Useless aside, if half of all FAC and or SGC holders (586,351 as at March 2021) applied for a variation in any one year and were charged £20 this would amount to over 11 million pounds to the government.

Variations aren’t required for SGC and they will account for 75% or more of licence holders. I think FAC is around the 120k mark.

The money doesn’t go to the government

 

[timbrayford]

Sent in my FAC to have it updated, the removal of several previously sold rifles. At the same time applied for a different calibre as a 1:1 replacement for one of these. I did not send in any fee as I was not increasing the number of items on the FAC.

I received this response:
I am in receipt of your variation but afraid that it will attract the normal fee of £20.00.
As far as I can see the disposal of the 2 303’s that you used to possess was in June 2020 and August 2020, over a year ago which can no longer be used for a one-for-one variation.

The rifles in question were disposed of as quoted but I was unable to get the FAC updated as the FAC licensing dept was not taking variations, due to Covid, at the time and has only just recently started taking them.

The HO guidance states the following.
10.69 The certificate holder should submit their firearm certificate, along with the completed Form 202, and, where appropriate, the fee, to the firearms licensing department. A fee is payable only in respect of variations which increase the number of firearms to which the certificate relates: if the holder wishes to dispose of one firearm and replace it with another then no fee is payable .

10.71“One for one” variation refers to firearms that are authorised to be acquired following the disposal of a firearm or a request to change an existing authority to acquire.
There is no set time in which the certificate holder must apply for a replacement authority once their firearm is disposed of.
Applications for “one for one” variations should be made by the certificate holder submitting their firearm certificate together with a completed Form 202 to the police firearms licensing department. Such variations are processed free of charge.

I am unable to find anything that introduces any time limits. If there is such please can someone point me in the general direction.
Are any other forces adopting this procedure?

Any advice greatly received.

A polite letter to the Head of the FLD is the way forward and if need be an official complaint. If you are a member of either BASC or NGO if you can enlist their help so much the better. FLDs seem to take more notice if the matter is drawn to their attention by a respected third party.

 

[Milligan]

Think of the opportunity cost of filing a complaint about a fee that, on the face of it, looks due as per 20.5.

How many renewals, variations and applications won't get processed while the case gets looked into, reported on and responded to?

 

[timbrayford]

£20.00 may not have covered the man hours devoted to this thread even at minimum wage rates...maybe just pay it?

Alan

PS sorry if it came over as unsympathtic but I wish some body was around to remind me not to sweat the small stuff more often...it would save me a lot of wasted effort!

Why? We already have gun laws that are not user friendly, are overly bureaucratic and frequently misunderstood by FLDs, do we really need the police to create clauses of the Firearms Act that don't in reality exist?

 

[dave 67]

I applied for a 1 4 1 after talking to FL office staff was told “oh that’s free” sent in form they sent it back saying £20 fee.
sent it back with £20 cheque and covering letter saying why I hadn’t sent payment first time, amended license sent back with the uncashed cheque FFS

 

[Alantoo]

Why? We already have gun laws that are not user friendly, are overly bureaucratic and frequently misunderstood by FLDs, do we really need the police to create clauses of the Firearms Act that don't in reality exist?

I quite agree we do not need any more legislation...apart from a firearm handling safety awareness/driving test...but as the OP has already quoted clause 20.5 from the HO Guidance in post #3, the charge for delayed 1-for-1 application beyond 7 days is clearly not a local FLO creation, just an implementation/interpretation of the existing situation?

20.5. Where a certificate holder who has disposed of a firearm makes application for a variation upon disposing of the firearm this will not normally attract a fee. This is usually within the seven days allowed for advice of the disposal, although this time may vary between police forces and depend on circumstance. Timings should be checked with the relevant licensing department.

As such it seems a hiding for nothing for the sake of £20 to argue that the HO guidance's "normal"and "usually" were intended to cover the extraordinary circumstances of the Pandemic. Or that the 7 days was written not as a statement of time to be taken at face value, but as one somehow implying it would be subject to any issue or circumstance beyond the applicants control, and then should be interpreted in the applicants favour rather than the FLOs.

Alan

 

[timbrayford]

I quite agree we do not need any more legislation...apart from a firearm handling safety awareness/driving test...but as the OP has already quoted clause 20.5 from the HO Guidance in post #3, the charge for delayed 1-for-1 application beyond 7 days is clearly not a local FLO creation, just an implementation/interpretation of the existing situation?


As such it seems a hiding for nothing for the sake of £20 to argue that the HO guidance's "normal"and "usually" were intended to cover the extraordinary circumstances of the Pandemic. Or that the 7 days was written not as a statement of time to be taken at face value, but as one somehow implying it would be subject to any issue or circumstance beyond the applicants control, and then should be interpreted in the applicants favour rather than the FLOs.

Alan

That's just a suggestion by the HO, its not on the statute book, just the same as the guidance on calibers its only an opinion!

 

[Alantoo]

That's just a suggestion by the HO, its not on the statute book, just the same as the guidance on calibers its only an opinion!

Absolutely…. and just as open to interpretation, and equally not worth arguing about.

From my point of view, I can see no value in the micro managing of firearms from either cost benefit or risk to the public.
Why, once you have been vetted and granted an FAC, you are not entitled to have as many as you like and to purchase and sell them as freely as shotgun or motor vehicles I really can’t understand.

Alan

 

[Scapegoat]

Absolutely…. and just as open to interpretation, and equally not worth arguing about.

From my point of view, I can see no value in the micro managing of firearms from either cost benefit or risk to the public.
Why, once you have been vetted and granted an FAC, you are not entitled to have as many as you like and to purchase and sell them as freely as shotgun or motor vehicles I really can’t understand.

Alan

From experience, there a lot of people who forget/neglect/think the rules don’t apply to them and only notify the police of disposals weeks later. It’s quite an onerous task to keep track of firearms as it is. Allow a free for all such as you suggest and the system would quickly go to ratchet.

Part of the joy of living in the UK is that as long as we take our responsibilities seriously, we will continue to enjoy firearms ownership. Seems a small price to pay imho

 

[Alantoo]

Allow a free for all such as you suggest and the system would quickly go to ratchet.

It may do.

On the other hand it may not.

The precedent of both vehicles and shotguns would indicate that people do actually do the paperwork.

It is in every seller’s interest to notify the authorities that they are no longer responsible for the car or shotgun in question, or indeed no longer liable for its misuse. I do not see why rifles should be any different.

Alan

 

[timbrayford]

From experience, there a lot of people who forget/neglect/think the rules don’t apply to them and only notify the police of disposals weeks later. It’s quite an onerous task to keep track of firearms as it is. Allow a free for all such as you suggest and the system would quickly go to ratchet.

Part of the joy of living in the UK is that as long as we take our responsibilities seriously, we will continue to enjoy firearms ownership. Seems a small price to pay imho

If you leave a notification beyond 7 days you are at serious risk of revocation!