Level of Shooting Skill Generally on show?

[Wingers243]

I have been thinking this season, having been involved in this odd business for 20+ years that it seems to me, over that time there has been a definite decrease in the level of skill with a shotgun being demonstrated on driven shoots.

I have no empirical evidence but I seem to remember when i first started, a reasonable team of guns would rarely shoot at worse than 2.5:1 and often better. A really hopeless team usually came back at no worse than 3.5:1 on the lowland shoots i attended.

It seems now that a good team comes in at 3:1 and rarely much better with results of 5:1 not being unusual on the same ground with many, sometimes much worse results.

The shoots i go to now are the same sort of size as ever, on the same type of ground and the pheasants are not one bit different.

I know there have always been duffers and we all have to learn but you rarely saw a whole line of duffers and learners all together.

I have to say, that back in the day when i learned my way into the business if i went beating on a Saturday, i would see many of the same guns out pigeon shooting or at a local clay shoot or two on Sunday and throughout the off-season. Doesn't seem to be the case now.

Perhaps have the mists of time put the past in soft focus and made things seem better than it was or is there a slide in process. What do you think?

 

[Highlandsjohn]

I don't know if there is a link. I despair at times seeing some Wildfowlers shooting at out of range geese. The secretary of our club had a flat tin replica cut out and hung up so the guys could see what the size of these birds are at various ranges. The art of follow through has to be learned and practiced.
Does anyone ask syndicate guns if they can actually shoot these days or is the cash the most important criteria?....

 

[Tim.243]

With driven game it is hard to get any thing else to compare with during the year, 4 + months on the ducks if you want to, I come off the pigeons then into the ducks. But then the young birds are not so sharp.

I joined a good wildfowling club to gain more marsh access, but was surprised on how little club members shoot the rest of the year. Some have no rough shooting ground at all and with busy lives it does take lots away from getting out with the gun.


We will watch a field for a week or so letting it build up with pigeons then go out to shoot a 100 plus if it goes right. But you have to work at it that much I have learnt. As Will Garfit said 1 hr in the right place is worth 3 hrs in the wrong place...


Cash is king as you only have to look on here with people who book there stalking, which is fine but most would not hunt out some land and go foxing to keep sharp.

People have their car washed while they go shopping so why would they not just pitch up at game shoot, blaze away, eat the food, pay the bill and go home!!

Tim.243

 

[baguio]

Does anyone ask syndicate guns if they can actually shoot these days or is the cash the most important criteria?....

You can only shoot the game once so why would a syndicate that is looking for a new member invite the best shot in the county to join them who would then proceed to shoot 30 birds to his own gun before lunch resulting in the day finishing early?

If I was going to pay for a peg on a 200 bird day I would want to be amongst poor shots and not good ones. Greedy I know but I would rather get the chance to shoot 50 birds to my own gun than 15. The day will end once the bag is reached after all!

 

[welshwarrior]

It's more accessible I see it quite often "I'm shooting in a couple of weeks so thought I better have a lesson!" Safety is the main thing we try to get a cross and often asking if they have their insurance yet focused their minds often they don't know why they need it "I won't shoot myself I'm not that stupid" when asked about the beater etc they may shoot they go quite.

Ive even had a guy turn up because he's never touch a gun of any type before and the police won't give him a license until he's learnt to handle a gun safely form a professional instructor who will to say what he's covered, but he's joined a syndicate so needs a gun ASAP!

I don't want to say it but can't help at times thinking a small test could be good thing to ensure people are safe and stand some chance of killing game cleanly.

 

[Roedinator]

I think that a lot of the points made are all relevant
personally I think people think they can just pick up a gun at the start of the season
and expect to perform at a high standard
where as as someone stated a bit of pigeon shooting and clays through the summer all
help to stay sharp

cash will be another thing people just happy to fill syndicate places or make up teams with
little regard to the individuals safety or shooting morals or Abilty

baguio makes a point about buying into a weak team of guns all well and good if they are truly
shocking and can't hit a barn door and you can shoot abit and fill your boots
but I've seen it work just as bad within a week team of guns shoot low birds that I wouldent raise
a gun to and before you know it your on your bag ****ed off very frustrated £500 quid worse off

personally I will only buy driven days with a team of guns that all sing off the same hymn sheet
Agree what the size of the bag will be so no hidden costs at the end of the day
not to shoot unsporting or low birds
Any overages or extra drives agreed with all guns and shoot owner if allowed
In my experience the guns you shoot with will make or break the day so pick accordingly

safe straight and happy shooting

Regards pete

 

[tikka_madras]

I'm relatively young (not quite 40 yet) but on most of the days I go to there are a fair few geriatric Guns. Probably demon shots in their day but now sadly not as sharp as they once were. Probably something to do with most money being in older hands, and the young being time poor compared to 30 years ago. I wonder if that's got something to do with it. Also there are plenty of newcomers - where once people grew up with shooting and served apprenticeships as beaters etc, now they have the cash so they splash.

As an aside, I'm normally careful not to poach anyone's else's birds. I was on a very close-pegged day recently when the very congenial elderly chap at the next peg was ignoring every sporting bird that came over, just raising his gun briefly too late and then giving up. I left his birds - which would have been ideal for me if we weren't so close-pegged - to him all day and think he shot one out of about fifty. He had a corker of a bird come over him at the end of the last drive, 40 yards+ and travelling. "He won't shoot at that" thought I, so I gave him a chance to raise his gun and when he didn't react I shot it straight overhead. There was a nice long delay before the shot hit, then down it came, a good few seconds in the fall, and hit the top of a tree thirty yards behind. BANG! went his gun. I turned, and he shouted with glee "got it as it came down to roost in that tree!".

I'm still not sure if he was gently chiding me for poaching, or genuinely thought he'd shot it on its way to bed.

 

[Pine Marten]

[...] and the young being time poor compared to 30 years ago. I wonder if that's got something to do with it. Also there are plenty of newcomers - where once people grew up with shooting and served apprenticeships as beaters etc, now they have the cash so they splash.

That certainly has a lot to do with it. Although I wanted to, I wasn't able to start shooting until my 20s. I lived in Central London so there were no easily accessible clay clubs, let alone game shooting. Limited cash available too to spend on shooting, and no car so all trips to the clay club were a major expedition and were few and far between. My friends and I were mostly self-taught, and still are, and it shows. After a bit, we started being invited on one driven shoot a year, with our shooting being inconsistent from one year to the next due to lack of practice. The guy who invited us shot with his father and their circle, had had proper coaching and was as a result far better than any of us. Twenty years down the line, he's not on that circuit anymore and the result is that he's no better than I am. Priorities for us have changed although the fact that a trip to the clays still takes an inordinate amount of time hasn't. But on the domestic front, there's no difference between derelection of family duty for clays or the rifle range, or the same for stalking or game shooting, it's all time away from home at the weekend. So you have to choose, and when I have the chance, I prefer to go chasing game. I'm much better with a rifle than a shotgun, so I mostly stalk now, on the half-dozen occasions a year when I can. Back when I was mostly wildfowling, I was shooting maybe a dozen cartridges a season (in the dark, and missing), so that didn't help.

The result of all of that is that I usually average about 4-6 shots per bird. That's OK, but not great, and I know that all it would take is regular attendance at a clay club, but there just isn't time to do that. One day I hope to sort that out. I could moan about how I would have liked a chance to learn as a youngster, but then as I said, my friend who did has fallen low like the rest of us because he doesn't have the time to practise anymore.

So as you said, it's a problem of access and available time, and shooting's like playing the violin, or knitting, or any other skill: you need to practice regularly. So best to shoot with people who aren't too fussed about the score and to shoot within the limits of your ability, foregoing shots that will most likely at best result in a clean miss.

 

[howa243]

Got to agree with some of the above. We have become a world where we desire instant gratification. By the time I shot my first pheasant I had been shooting for a decade. The business of gun handling and how to shoot was learned over a long period of time, not in a classroom or during a fifteen minute taster at a clay ground. We certainly do not do ourselves any favours, when we allow folks to go out with little or no training and hose around the countryside .

 

[Roedinator]

Got to agree with some of the above. We have become a world where we desire instant gratification. By the time I shot my first pheasant I had been shooting for a decade. The business of gun handling and how to shoot was learned over a long period of time, not in a classroom or during a fifteen minute taster at a clay ground. We certainly do not do ourselves any favours, when we allow folks to go out with little or no training and hose around the countryside .

 

[Kano383]

One thing that truly surprised me - and still does - is the number of people who show up on a Big Game safari with very poor shooting/hunting skills.

Considering the amount of money (and time) spent on such a hunt, not to mention the fact that a poor shot can mean that somebody gets killed or seriously wounded, I cannot comprehend that someone does not invest a few hundred bucks in ammunition and training prior to the hunt. Spending $15,000 to $20,000 on a buffalo hunt, but too cheap to buy ten boxes of ammunition and endeavour to know his rifle and improve his skills? Too macho or too embarrassed to ask advice and guidance back home from a seasoned hunter?

The mind boggles. Fact is, I have seen people entirely miss a live target less than 100 meters away, and I have seen so many mangled shots that I now feel serious apprehension anytime someone I do not really know attempts to put a round in a dangerous animal, or on plains game in a tricky environment (late in the day if you need to do a follow up, or tough vegetation/terrain). Punching holes on paper targets at a range does not count: animals do not have round red spots painted on, and you are often tired and out of breath from a long stalk, and emotional because big dark bad thing have this kind of effect on men...

Even then, I've seen people who could not reliably hit a one foot circle on a cardboard box at 100 meters, and worse, people who did not have the faintest clue of how to pull the trigger, not to mention breath control, not resting the barrel on a hard obstacle, stance, and so on. And these people had just forked out the equivalent of a few months' salary on a hunt, with what appears to be zero preparation besides splurging on shiny gadgets, expensive rifles, and premium spirits...

Strange.

 

[Chasey]

Back 15 years ago i did 50 sporting clays every sunday and was averaging 43 so when out on Duck or phesent I was hitting most of what I aimed at. Now sadly I dont have the time or money to go clay shooting regularly but after missing one to many duck I went for a training day on clays and was apauled at how bad I was. I did do a 10 clear high crossing bird to finish the day but the first 30 odd I was hitting the last one or two of 10, so prety awfull.

Rough shooting id be lucky to bang off a half dozon shells so you just dont do enough to keep the eye in.

I think If i were geting more serious about duck or phesent, id have to do a lt more clays to keep on top of my game.

 

[Alistair]

It is also worth noting that any practice done must be effective practice. I shoot a lot of clays through coaching the university team, but it doesn't help me to improve at all. Why? Because the level that the squad shoots at means that I can hit all the targets they need to practice. If I was shooting to improve I would need to find challenging birds that I can't kill consistently and focus on those. Some blokes at my clay ground shoot 100 clays a week and never improve their scores in any meaningful way. It is enough to keep the skills sharp, but to improve, coaching is always the way to go.
For me, a single full days coaching improved my clay scores by more than the previous 6 months of shooting 100 clays a week. Pity they are still pathetic really.

 

[Overlay]

On an estate in Scotland I used to stalk, tooooo many years ago if I'm honest, the head keeper ran the stalking and pheasant / grouse shoots with beat keepers

On the pheasant shoot side it consisted of shots fired in conjunction with bag required

can't remember the ratio. But 3 shots to 1 bird sounds familiar, once you've reached the 600 th shot on a 200 bird day. Game over

it was all in the contract and no one as far as I know ever quibbled and the bags were all around the expected tally

The bird presentation was superb, driven over valleys with guns in the bottom, no low birds all guality birds and guns, well the guns were well prepared and sharp, a pleasure to watch em shoot.

At first it seemed a bit of a funny way of honing the day, but every shoot day was a good sporting day enjoyed by everyone from the beaters to the guns

perhaps the Ching Ching method as taken over after all, it's certainly different now, with the " I've paid my money brigade" attitude that's hereabouts nowadays

 

[jubnut]

I have certainly seen some pretty **** poor range judging recently. And far more of the "when there is lead in the air there's hope" type attitude.

 

[PaulyP]

I have loaded on two west country estates for the last ten years and nothing surprises me any more. Its gone from showing them how to hold a shotgun. safety issues. and even showing them what a pheasant looks like. The final straw came just before Christmas when I had to hold the fore end of a young lads gun whilst he was shooting just to make him safe. All because his father was rich. In my day it was safety was drummed into you then you where shown how to hold a gun and so on. Experience is the key word, with money coming way down the order.

 

[willie_gunn]

This is a very interesting thread.

I was on the same "beat/stand" syndicate for over 15 years. We had a consistent group of guns - some who could shoot well and others who...err...were, shall we say, not so good. Our average ratio was always somewhere between 3 and 4 to 1.

With the loss of our ground I was forced to change shoots three years ago. The new "driven" shoot was well established but had a higher turnover of guns, many of whom were relatively new to shooting. The first year the rate was probably between 5 and 6 to 1. Then the second year three more of the guns from my old syndicate joined. The rate this year is down to somewhere just over 3 to 1. The difference is remarkable, but it shows to me just what an impact having half a dozen "good" shots can make. I know those other three guns spend a lot of time shooting, both during the season and on clays in the summer, and it's encouraged me to up my game. Having gone out with them last summer on a simulated game day I came into this season much more confident - and I find confidence is more than half the battle.

I think this is replicated across other shoots as well. As shooting has become so much more popular there are lot of new people coming into the sport. Whilst in many ways a good thing, and something to be encouraged, it has also resulted in a change in attitudes. Gone are the days of learning by standing at your father's side and progressing from the single-barrel .410 to a 12 bore. Instead people fancy "getting into" shooting and take it up at an older age. It's not a cheap sport, and as PM says there are many who can only afford to take up game shooting when they're older. There is also the corporate market that has emerged, where people might shoot for one or two days a year instead of going on a corporate golf day. So to some extent game shooting has become a "lifestyle" choice. So whilst the number of people who shoot game may be increasing, I would think the average years of experience those people have of shooting game is reducing.

What does this have to do with the standard of shooting? I think in general terms the level of marksmanship has dropped - or perhaps polarised is a better expression. A lot of guns don't have the experience, or don't get the practice, to shoot game consistently. But I also note a tendency for some guns to shoot any bird that goes over them, rather than just picking the sporting birds. When it comes to game shooting I've always said that if you can't eat the birds that you're killing then you're killing the sport you're enjoying, but for some a pheasant seems to be no more than a feathered clay pigeon. During the season I spend days shooting, loading, beating and picking up; it is a pleasure to watch a sporting gun bringing down good birds, but it is painful to watch someone blasting a bird that's barely beyond the end of their barrels. On a paid-for driven day both birds cost the same amount, but if I'm on a 100 or 150-bird day I know which ones I'd rather being paying for!

 

[willie_gunn]

For me, a single full days coaching improved my clay scores by more than the previous 6 months of shooting 100 clays a week.

But that's no different than people who pick up a shotgun - any shotgun - and expect to hit everything with it. Everyone is built differently, so why expect a "standard" shotgun to fit every person? It's the same as if they built suits in just one size and we all expected them to fit straight off the rack!

The best £100 of shooting money I spent was on having my gun fitted to me.

Strangely it now means that the shot goes where I am aiming for - even if I'm still not always aiming in the right place to hit the bird

 

[Wingers243]

You can only shoot the game once so why would a syndicate that is looking for a new member invite the best shot in the county to join them who would then proceed to shoot 30 birds to his own gun before lunch resulting in the day finishing early?

If I was going to pay for a peg on a 200 bird day I would want to be amongst poor shots and not good ones. Greedy I know but I would rather get the chance to shoot 50 birds to my own gun than 15. The day will end once the bag is reached after all!

That's all very well but being a good shot doesn't excuse you from being a good sport!

Shoot your fair share and if that's half of half the total bag you went for because your fellow guns couldn't hit a cow's arse, so be it. You've had your sport.

 

[Wingers243]

It is also worth noting that any practice done must be effective practice. I shoot a lot of clays through coaching the university team, but it doesn't help me to improve at all. Why? Because the level that the squad shoots at means that I can hit all the targets they need to practice. If I was shooting to improve I would need to find challenging birds that I can't kill consistently and focus on those. Some blokes at my clay ground shoot 100 clays a week and never improve their scores in any meaningful way. It is enough to keep the skills sharp, but to improve, coaching is always the way to go.
For me, a single full days coaching improved my clay scores by more than the previous 6 months of shooting 100 clays a week. Pity they are still pathetic really.

I hope you're not at Harper Adams because if you are, I'm going to come back up there and kick your backsides into shape!

If you're talking about RAU though... You stick at it

I know student finances are different now but I did most of my practice while in my college team. Being out 3 or 4 times a week was great. I agree though, what really improved us was shooting registered comps EVERY week without fail.

I always said that to get better you have to shoot targets you can't hit.