Low velocity bullet advice
- Thread starter NigelM
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In response to your question , no I'm not worried about ricocheting from Barnes Bullets.
This is because if I have done my research and got the load right the bullet will expand but not exit, putting the beast down but not endangering my dog. I have spoken to a lot of trackers on the continent about this and picked their brains about projectiles and energy requirements to do the desired job.
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...and that's about 2000 fps is it Lee? If my numbers are right that's about 1300 ftlb using the 150 grain Barnes.
caorach
Well-Known Member
I've no experience with the Barnes at all.
It might be worth doing some hunting about the internet. Some time back there was lots of talk of some places banning the Barnes because of the potential for ricochet but I've never heard of that actually happening and it may just be that people were frightened because something new had come along, or it may just have been internet rumour. It might be worth asking the question on somewhere like the Accurate Reloading website.
I'm just thinking aloud here but...
There seem to be two types of event that count as a ricochet. In one the bullet breaks up and parts of it "bounce" back in the general direction from which it has come and in the other the bullet holds together, to a greater or lesser extent, and the larger part of it bounces at an acute angle from a hard surface heading onwards within about 90 degrees of its initial path.
I have personal experience of the first type, especially with pistol bullets when fired at a steel target. A pistol bullet under these circumstances will often shed its jacket, peeling back like a banana sometimes, and it is not unusual for little bits of copper to break off and come back in the direction from which they were fired. I was standing beside a chap who got cut in the face by a bit of copper and we were approx 30 yards from the steel target, standing behind the shooter. I've seen my Hornday spire point rifle loads have a similar sort of behaviour of the copper jacket, but have never actually had it come back towards me as it has always been fired into a soft backstop, hence why I've been able to recover the jacket and see what happened. However I would suggest that a cup and core type bullet fired at a very hard surface will have the potential for the jacket, or bits of it, to come back in the general direction of the shooter.
A bullet which hangs together seems to me to be less likely to suffer from this problem of bits of jacket bouncing back but I would guess that such a bullet is more likely to take a deflection, and remain viable as a missile, if hitting a hard surface at an angle. In general its onward path will be within 90 degrees of the direction it was travelling before the deflection just because the laws of physics would make this the most likely outcome. It will have much reduced energy and not fly very well and so is unlikely to travel a huge distance after the deflection but, in saying that, you might be talking 250 - 500 yards just based on some calcs I did based on how far a bullet might travel after passing through a deer.
Of course all of this is just a "thought experiment" and you'd have to do a lot of testing to reach any firm conclusion. What I will say is that you are unlikely to be shooting in an unsafe direction and so a bullet which continues on for a little way, even after taking a deflection, should not be a risk to anyone and will probably meet a safe backstop as per your plans whereas every time you shoot you will be standing in the area where bits of copper jacket might return to. You will almost certainly take measures to make either outcome very unlikely and bullet construction would seem to have a part to play but only you can decide on the outcome you favour.
It might be worth doing some hunting about the internet. Some time back there was lots of talk of some places banning the Barnes because of the potential for ricochet but I've never heard of that actually happening and it may just be that people were frightened because something new had come along, or it may just have been internet rumour. It might be worth asking the question on somewhere like the Accurate Reloading website.
I'm just thinking aloud here but...
There seem to be two types of event that count as a ricochet. In one the bullet breaks up and parts of it "bounce" back in the general direction from which it has come and in the other the bullet holds together, to a greater or lesser extent, and the larger part of it bounces at an acute angle from a hard surface heading onwards within about 90 degrees of its initial path.
I have personal experience of the first type, especially with pistol bullets when fired at a steel target. A pistol bullet under these circumstances will often shed its jacket, peeling back like a banana sometimes, and it is not unusual for little bits of copper to break off and come back in the direction from which they were fired. I was standing beside a chap who got cut in the face by a bit of copper and we were approx 30 yards from the steel target, standing behind the shooter. I've seen my Hornday spire point rifle loads have a similar sort of behaviour of the copper jacket, but have never actually had it come back towards me as it has always been fired into a soft backstop, hence why I've been able to recover the jacket and see what happened. However I would suggest that a cup and core type bullet fired at a very hard surface will have the potential for the jacket, or bits of it, to come back in the general direction of the shooter.
A bullet which hangs together seems to me to be less likely to suffer from this problem of bits of jacket bouncing back but I would guess that such a bullet is more likely to take a deflection, and remain viable as a missile, if hitting a hard surface at an angle. In general its onward path will be within 90 degrees of the direction it was travelling before the deflection just because the laws of physics would make this the most likely outcome. It will have much reduced energy and not fly very well and so is unlikely to travel a huge distance after the deflection but, in saying that, you might be talking 250 - 500 yards just based on some calcs I did based on how far a bullet might travel after passing through a deer.
Of course all of this is just a "thought experiment" and you'd have to do a lot of testing to reach any firm conclusion. What I will say is that you are unlikely to be shooting in an unsafe direction and so a bullet which continues on for a little way, even after taking a deflection, should not be a risk to anyone and will probably meet a safe backstop as per your plans whereas every time you shoot you will be standing in the area where bits of copper jacket might return to. You will almost certainly take measures to make either outcome very unlikely and bullet construction would seem to have a part to play but only you can decide on the outcome you favour.
If you are going to try to get 2,600 fps out of such a short barrel, instead of your original idea of a slow bullet, you are back to just shooting normal .308 Win 150-gr loads, of 2,800 fps from a 24-inch barrel.
As to richochet, at close range, the bullet will striking hard ( like a normal load at 100 yards or less), so it is going to upset and mushroom, and that is what is going to exit the animal and strike the ground, so little chance of much richochet there.
.223 FMJ bullets will ricochet off a windshield of a car, head on. So will FMG 9mm pistol bullets. Police bullets designed to not richochet off glass and hard floors, like the Hirtenberger 9mm, flatten out at whatever angle they hit, and go through glass, but just sort of slide along a tile floor.
That's why I would go with something like a 150-gr FN .30-30 bullet at 2,400 fps or even less. In a .30-30 lever action up close, it has killed large bear, moose, elk, and angry cornered boar too numerous to count.
I have killed wounded deer, up and on the move, with 9mm and .38 and .357, all one shot to the chest, so the above .308 load is way enough. Go borrow a .30-30 and shoot in the dirt with rocks around; that's a cheap way to find out if it will work for you. Talk to the .30-30 hunters here at SD.
As to richochet, at close range, the bullet will striking hard ( like a normal load at 100 yards or less), so it is going to upset and mushroom, and that is what is going to exit the animal and strike the ground, so little chance of much richochet there.
.223 FMJ bullets will ricochet off a windshield of a car, head on. So will FMG 9mm pistol bullets. Police bullets designed to not richochet off glass and hard floors, like the Hirtenberger 9mm, flatten out at whatever angle they hit, and go through glass, but just sort of slide along a tile floor.
That's why I would go with something like a 150-gr FN .30-30 bullet at 2,400 fps or even less. In a .30-30 lever action up close, it has killed large bear, moose, elk, and angry cornered boar too numerous to count.
I have killed wounded deer, up and on the move, with 9mm and .38 and .357, all one shot to the chest, so the above .308 load is way enough. Go borrow a .30-30 and shoot in the dirt with rocks around; that's a cheap way to find out if it will work for you. Talk to the .30-30 hunters here at SD.
Product - Sierra Bullets - The Bulletsmiths
Southern, just so I'm clear, you would take the attached and load it to say 2000 fps as an option for close range HD?
Southern, just so I'm clear, you would take the attached and load it to say 2000 fps as an option for close range HD?
The 2 loads I will be developing are 1 for roe/muntjac and one for boar/red etc will be around those kind of figures , but like I said my priorities are 1 to humanely kill 2 not kill my dog . My rifle should be done and I should have some facts in the next month or so
Sorry I havent trawled throught this thread but Bruce Potts has done a big article on the very rifle you are looking for. Not sure if it was in Shooting sports or his book i will try and retrieve it. Basically he built a ?.308 fully moderated ? poss sub sonic for woodland stalking.
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Yes, i have done just that, but with the equivalent loads above, like a .30-30, which is 2,400 fps or so in a 20-inch barrel (Marlin 336). I have used them in a Savage 99C .308 saddle carbine, and an FR-8 Mauser, which is about the size rifle you are making. They are made for in impact velocity of 2,000 to 2,400 fps.
Start with 37 to 38 grains of H-4895 and see how that shoots. One thing about these FN and RN bullets is the long shanks line up in the bore and spin well at lower velocities, so they are accurate without a lot of fuss about loads and seating.
Do you have a hunting friend who uses a .30-30? Get them to go tracking with you, so you can see how that works, first hand.
The 125-gr Sierra match load was used by a boy in his .308 Win as a mild load, and dropped a feeding buck in its tracks at almost 200 yards It is basically what Remington now sells as its "Reduced Recoil" ammo.
Start with 37 to 38 grains of H-4895 and see how that shoots. One thing about these FN and RN bullets is the long shanks line up in the bore and spin well at lower velocities, so they are accurate without a lot of fuss about loads and seating.
Do you have a hunting friend who uses a .30-30? Get them to go tracking with you, so you can see how that works, first hand.
The 125-gr Sierra match load was used by a boy in his .308 Win as a mild load, and dropped a feeding buck in its tracks at almost 200 yards It is basically what Remington now sells as its "Reduced Recoil" ammo.
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Would love to read that if you can find it.
Thanks Southern, but I've never even seen a Cowboy gun and certainly don't know anyone who owns one.
It's not going to take long to work up a few loads and try them out. Lee is on the same thing and is likely to get there before me so there are a few of us to share knowledge on bolt action rifles.
It's not going to take long to work up a few loads and try them out. Lee is on the same thing and is likely to get there before me so there are a few of us to share knowledge on bolt action rifles.
tackb
Well-Known Member
tackb
Well-Known Member
That's just about right, although the barrel will have to be a tad longer for an over barrel Hardy. Should make it shorter overall length through, and I should end up around 8lb including mod and scope rather than 10lb without a scope.
Thanks Mereside, but I don't think I need to see one in action, and Yorkshire is a long way to come to see a rifle. I am committed to the .308 build and I just need to get the load right for that.
Just found that Barnes make the TSX in 30 cal as a 150 grain Flat Nose which expands down to 1500 fps. Might be perfect as a HD round loaded down to 1800 fps to sit alongside a 150 TTSX loaded to 2600 fps as a general stalking and Boar bullet. I could keep both with me and with the flat nose on one and plastic tip on the other I shouldn't get too confused, even in the dark!
Just found that Barnes make the TSX in 30 cal as a 150 grain Flat Nose which expands down to 1500 fps. Might be perfect as a HD round loaded down to 1800 fps to sit alongside a 150 TTSX loaded to 2600 fps as a general stalking and Boar bullet. I could keep both with me and with the flat nose on one and plastic tip on the other I shouldn't get too confused, even in the dark!
If you manage to actually get some Barnes flat nose please let me know cant get them anywhere in the UK !
I have just secured 150 old stock tsx for 35 a box that should last me a year or five .
You're worrying about ricochets which is good, it shows your are responsible.
Something to to set your mind at ease a little though. I've shot rabbits with my 405gr cast bullets at a little under 1800fps and absolutely no signs or sounds of ricochet in any way at all.
So long as you are sensible, which you no doubt are, you'll be fine.
I think the idea of the barnes flat noses is a good one. Seems to tick all the boxes and illuminate the chance of a bit of jacket hurting the dog.
Cast bullets I also think are a great idea. Mainly since a company such as Shellhouse can make you bullets in whichever alloy you want and therefore you can tailor what it does on impact.
Something to to set your mind at ease a little though. I've shot rabbits with my 405gr cast bullets at a little under 1800fps and absolutely no signs or sounds of ricochet in any way at all.
So long as you are sensible, which you no doubt are, you'll be fine.
I think the idea of the barnes flat noses is a good one. Seems to tick all the boxes and illuminate the chance of a bit of jacket hurting the dog.
Cast bullets I also think are a great idea. Mainly since a company such as Shellhouse can make you bullets in whichever alloy you want and therefore you can tailor what it does on impact.
I'm going to the US in early May. Might get a mate of mine to order some up. I don't think there is any issue in bringing bullets back into the UK providing you have them on your FAC is there?
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