Marksmanship Standards

So I was at a range today that shall remain nameless as it's not about the range but the shooters. It is primarily used by stalkers and vermin shooters. I have a pretty miserable view of stalkers shooting abilities generally but after today I have to question the availability of a FAC without a firearms competency test.

The target area is surrounded by a 5'+ square of timber which was peppered with bullet holes. Some very large bullet holes. Not ones that are being shot at bunnies. Fortunately for them, the shooters are nameless but such was the number of negligent discharges (3' 4' and maybe even more, cannot be considered anything else) that these people represent a danger to the rest of us, either physically or that they do something like that out stalking and somebody catches a bullet with the inevitable firearms law review.

Clearly these people don't know (or perhaps care) about bore sighting a rifle and don't know what to do if a shot does not appear on the target.

I hear all the stuff about maintaining our freedoms so no compulsory training, tests etc however after that today I am afraid I have changed my mind. Freedoms only survive if people are responsible enough to make sure they are competent and operate safely. Clearly not everybody is, or cares, and that is the environment where more legislation will appear eventually.

I now am coming to the view that the DSC1 shooting test is inadequate. It should include mounting and zeroing a scope with bore sighting. That is a basic skill. I am also coming the view that if DSC2 is supposed to demonstrate competence then it should include shooting test to a much higher level ie out to 300 yards prone and equivalent off sticks etc. At the moment you can whack a deer at 50 yards and are deemed be fully competent. Eh naw.

Most of you will disagree with me, but you did not see what I did. If someone was shooting like that on a range with me I would be off home quick.

 

[antsa]

When I lived in Sweden there were two ways to acquiring a firearm: one was being a member of a target shooting club, said club endorsing your ability after a certain length of time and the other one was completing the hunting licence exam - theoretical and practical (with accuracy requirements). With the club endorsement or hunting licence in hand one could then apply for a permit to acquire a firearm. Note here that a target rifle permit did not allow that rifle to be used for hunting. To hunt, the hunting licence was mandatory.
I assume that the process is more or less the same today.

Cheers

 

[sy247]

If I see someone doing something wrong at the Range, I go and politely point it out to them, most of the time there is no hard feeling, I think if you see someone doing something dodgy, then your the numpty for not pointing it out to them.

Last year we had a guy in our club who turned up at the 1000 yard Range and he couldn't even hit the Target, so as per the rules 3 shots and your off, instead of ridiculing him, with his beautiful AI rifle and a fancy Night force scope, I spoke to him only to find out he had never shot the rifle at that distance, only out to 300 yards, so I took him to the zeroing range, sorted through his 5 different types of ammo and found 3 boxes of 140 match ammo, I chronographed his rifle with those cartridges, then adjusted to rifle to a good solid zero, entered the correct data into his ballistic app, then took him back to the 1000 yard range, got him to dial his own elevation and windage, went through all the setting on his Scope and explained the difference between Mil and Moa, He took his first shot a Vbull, he was over the moon, then I said if in doubt ask because most of us are approachable, but you do get the odd Billy big bollocks who thinks he's Chris Kyle and no one else should be allowed on the Range, advice and manners cost bugger all.

I've found all the f-class guys I shoot with really helpful and only too willing to share their considerable knowledge, which is much appreciated by a relative novice such as myself

 

[Delivery]

number of negligent discharges (3' 4' and maybe even more, cannot be considered anything else)

Obviously theres been a bit of talk here about what an "ND" is and isnt so I wont comment on that

Its also been pointed out that on MoD ranges there can be bullet marks more than 7ft from the aiming area (I think thats termed suppressing fire )

I would just comment that nobody left basic training unable to hit the target but some people needed help to get to that standard as they had never fired a rifle before
We were expected to shoot from Prone, Sitting, Kneeling and Standing unsupported (off-hand) to prove we were at the required standard
Unsafe, yes, potentially under certain conditions but not with military instructors - if you need to teach someone from scratch how to shoot then doing it on a range is where to do it rather than in the field
So if you accept not everyone understands the basics and may not have had any training I'd rather have them doing their learning under supervision in controlled environment
Also - if you are being taught how not to use a full-auto you may well experience muzzle climb (not that the OP is probably referring to full auto training)

I also did my DSC in the last 12m and had never shot from sticks until I did the exam, which I didnt pass first go, but only by a tiny amount not feet, anyway I needed someone to show me the techniques of using sticks and after that we were good to go. Apparently the rules are that no shooting coaching should be given on the DSC, probably some liability thing or something. So in my humble opinion I think that part of the DSC should include zeroing and shooting off sticks training. Just my view but it may explain the holes!

 

[Free range rob]

I was quite taken aback how many people were on the dsc that couldn’t shoot to what I would say was even a halfway good enough standard, yet in class they were all experienced rifle shooters

 

[terrier1]

I was quite taken aback how many people were on the dsc that couldn’t shoot to what I would say was even a halfway good enough standard, yet in class they were all experienced rifle shooters

Yes I was surprised that two on my DSC1 course failed the shooting test. I got the DSC1 manual and studied it until I knew it backwards then went for assessment only due to work commitments. The best thing was I was told the ones who had done the full course had spent the previous afternoon on the shooting test. The group I shot with no one wanted to go first so I shot first just followed what the guy testing us wanted and passed.

 

[Delivery]

I was told by the guy that did my assessment its much more commonto fail the DSC shooting assessment than you might think and when I pushed him to get numbers he reckoned about 50% of the people that he'd assessed BUT it wasnt 50% per course - some courses would get 100% pass and others up to 100% fail. Everyone on my assessment failed the first attempt - actually there might have been one guy passed first time I cant remember TBH.

The best thing was I was told the ones who had done the full course had spent the previous afternoon on the shooting test.

Do you mean they had practiced shooting the day before or been assessed already or do you mean they had talked it through or what?

I can put a cloverleaf down at 100 yards from a supported position but didnt know that if I put my left hand palm away from me or my left hand palm towards me when creating my stance on sticks, that could make the difference between having a perfectly stable platform or having my hand trembling.

Once I'd been shown that (basically how to stand up properly with sticks set up to the correct height) I could put 3x 3x 3x into the 100 y 70 y 20 y easily, but I still had to do the 2x 2x 2x into the 100 y 70 y 20 y even after I'd just proved I could do it 3x.

I was quite taken aback how many people were on the dsc that couldn’t shoot to what I would say was even a halfway good enough standard, yet in class they were all experienced rifle shooters

So I am not surprised that if someone has never done something before they might not know how to do it - even so when people didnt pass the first assessment I'm talking about getting 5/6 on target and one about 1/2" outside.
Theres also going to be other factors like are you using someone else's rifle that you've never touched before?
Do you have somewhere you can practice with a deer target to get used to aiming in the right place - obviously you dont want to be learning on an actual deer!
None of that is anything like what OP was referring to BUT I still dont understand why no coaching on the shooting (before the assessment) takes place - or at least didnt on my course.

Thats exactly why training exists, to get comfortable and proficient doing something you are unfamiliar with - theres no shame in it - in fact quite the opposite it's the people that dont think they need training but dont have any experience that may be an issue.
D

 

[terrier1]

Do you mean they had practiced shooting the day before or been assessed already or do you mean they had talked it through or what?

Yes they had been practicing the day before one of them had had to go and get some more ammunition as he had run out practicing the previous day. They all got assessed on the same day as me on everything.

 

[Delivery]

Yes they had been practicing the day before one of them had had to go and get some more ammunition as he had run out practicing the previous day.

Thats very interesting. The way I took it the DSC instructor wasnt supposed to allow a practice on the course itself
I understood that it was allowable to do the assessment twice (like on day 1 and day 2) but there was ony one range slot available so we couldnt do it
Nevertheless I can still see why someone could get 1 out of 6 outside the ring, particularly if they hadnt shot off sticks
D

 

[terrier1]

Thats very interesting. The way I took it the DSC instructor wasnt supposed to allow a practice on the course itself
I understood that it was allowable to do the assessment twice (like on day 1 and day 2) but there was ony one range slot available so we couldnt do it
Nevertheless I can still see why someone could get 1 out of 6 outside the ring, particularly if they hadnt shot off sticks
D

How long ago did you take your DSC1?
Day 1 and day 2 are all about training to pass the qualification day 3 is the is the assessment day.

 

[Delivery]

As mentioned in the last 12 months

 

[Delivery]

As per

I also did my DSC in the last 12m and had never shot from sticks until I did the exam, which I didnt pass first go, but only by a tiny amount not feet, anyway I needed someone to show me the techniques of using sticks

 

[terrier1]

It could have changed because I took my level one years ago in fact I did my level 2 years ago aswell.

 

[stubear]

Maybe. I am being deliberately obtuse so it is hard to identify the place.

I call a 3' miss above a target at 100 yards a negligent discharge. You may disagree. A 5' miss is definitely an ND. You can workout the MILS yourself. Repeated misses of 3' are a series of ND's.

No - a ND is discharging your weapon when you didn’t mean to. It is also often referred to as an unintentional discharge for that reason.

Aiming down range and firing your gun deliberately but missing your target by 3 feet is either crappy marksmanship or a zeroing issue, but it is not an ND.

 

[Jagare]

When I lived in Sweden there were two ways to acquiring a firearm: one was being a member of a target shooting club, said club endorsing your ability after a certain length of time and the other one was completing the hunting licence exam - theoretical and practical (with accuracy requirements). With the club endorsement or hunting licence in hand one could then apply for a permit to acquire a firearm. Note here that a target rifle permit did not allow that rifle to be used for hunting. To hunt, the hunting licence was mandatory.
I assume that the process is more or less the same today.

Cheers

The process is still the same. A hunting rifle can be used on targets and shooting comps but you can't use a rifle licenced for target for hunting.

 

[Jagare]

I see from some of the above posts that shooting skills on the DSC test often leave a lot to be desired. This is something that I find hard to understand. People take the DSC because they want to shoot deer? The most important part of shooting deer is being proficient with your rifle?
So there are those that take the test and are completely unprepared for what is required on the day? Very strange.
So things have not really improved since I took the , woodland stalkers cert, the forerunner of the DSC back in another life?

 

[User00040]

So there are those that take the test and are completely unprepared for what is required on the day?

Yes, some QUANGO's send their desk jockeys out for the ticket so they can use it as another token qualification to tell others 'SHOOT MORE DEER!'

Very strange.

Welcome to Scotland...

 

[Jagare]

Yes, some QUANGO's send their desk jockeys out for the ticket so they can use it as another token qualification to tell others 'SHOOT MORE DEER!'



Welcome to Scotland...

When I did the WSC shooting test there was a couple of chaps from a water company somewhere that had been sent to pass the WSC. They shared a rifle, a trebble two if I recall right. Not only had they little shooting skill but the rifle wasn't sighted in and they had no idea how to remedy the problem. Can't remember how many took the test that day but only three of us passed first time.

 

[terrier1]

I also did my DSC in the last 12m and had never shot from sticks until I did the exam, which I didnt pass first go, but only by a tiny amount not feet, anyway I needed someone to show me the techniques of using sticks and after that we were good to go. Apparently the rules are that no shooting coaching should be given on the DSC, probably some liability thing or something. So in my humble opinion I think that part of the DSC should include zeroing and shooting off sticks training. Just my view but it may explain the holes!

Now I have read your post through I have a better understanding of your point.
I am surprised that some people are taking DSC1 without having some previous experience. I had been deer stalking 7 or 8 years before I took my DSC1 and I was very lucky to be stalking with a guy who was AW and was always happy to share his knowledge with me and it was this guy who told me to put in for my DSC1.

 

[Delivery]

I am surprised that some people are taking DSC1 without having some previous experience.

I didnt have a choice about when because of timings and lack of access to any range where I could set up a deer target to practice on
So basically I was expecting some guidance on using sticks or a tripod (I tried both to see which I liked best)
After I had done the assessment I found that West London do a good 100 yards zero session and the day I went there was a guy who was very experienced with shooting off sticks took one look at what I was doing and told me how to correct it in two simple points 1) Make sure the sticks are extended long enough 2) always mount the left hand the same (I was changing it)
D

 

[Madu]

Maybe. I am being deliberately obtuse so it is hard to identify the place.

I call a 3' miss above a target at 100 yards a negligent discharge. You may disagree. A 5' miss is definitely an ND. You can workout the MILS yourself. Repeated misses of 3' are a series of ND's.

Sorry mate, I was enjoying your post and agreeing with most of it until this, a miss, no matter by how much is marksmanship, a negligent discharge is firearms handling issue, two very separate issues.