Marksmanship Standards

So I was at a range today that shall remain nameless as it's not about the range but the shooters. It is primarily used by stalkers and vermin shooters. I have a pretty miserable view of stalkers shooting abilities generally but after today I have to question the availability of a FAC without a firearms competency test.

The target area is surrounded by a 5'+ square of timber which was peppered with bullet holes. Some very large bullet holes. Not ones that are being shot at bunnies. Fortunately for them, the shooters are nameless but such was the number of negligent discharges (3' 4' and maybe even more, cannot be considered anything else) that these people represent a danger to the rest of us, either physically or that they do something like that out stalking and somebody catches a bullet with the inevitable firearms law review.

Clearly these people don't know (or perhaps care) about bore sighting a rifle and don't know what to do if a shot does not appear on the target.

I hear all the stuff about maintaining our freedoms so no compulsory training, tests etc however after that today I am afraid I have changed my mind. Freedoms only survive if people are responsible enough to make sure they are competent and operate safely. Clearly not everybody is, or cares, and that is the environment where more legislation will appear eventually.

I now am coming to the view that the DSC1 shooting test is inadequate. It should include mounting and zeroing a scope with bore sighting. That is a basic skill. I am also coming the view that if DSC2 is supposed to demonstrate competence then it should include shooting test to a much higher level ie out to 300 yards prone and equivalent off sticks etc. At the moment you can whack a deer at 50 yards and are deemed be fully competent. Eh naw.

Most of you will disagree with me, but you did not see what I did. If someone was shooting like that on a range with me I would be off home quick.
 
Being blunt but trying to be respectful to yourself and other target shooters . Those guys are a nightmare to the stalker and here is a few why bits . BTW i did quite a lot of target shooting in various disciplines at times and have seen some very, very good guys on targets make a total fool of themselves on deer.
1. when you dont get two sighter shots to dial into its a whole lot more important to stick to ranges appropriate
2. If you can shoot 0.25 moa prone at 300 yards on a range prone , how are you shooting off-hand standing
3. remember nobody has cleared the backdrop
4. targets never take a step unexpectedly or spook
5. if you get the wiggles , simply dont take the shot until you are calmed down
6. understand the term "under the bolt" correctly
7. no decent stalker is going to let someone shoot a deer at 600 yards based on target experiance , see 1 above
8. A full time pro stalker of worth will practically always come back with deer without you but he will often come back with nothing with the help of a great target shooter
9. chance of a guest being allowed to shoot to 600 yards are absolutely remote see number 4 that's even when your an acredited dope God
10. if you take to that easy 100 yard test target and fire three perfect shots off hand , off one knee and prone . you will see a big smile on the stalkers face . you are then set for a really great day . You still wont be shooting at any 600 yard deer though
I have had this conversation many times face to face when i was punching paper and ringing steel , the two things are very different . To be fair most stalkers struggle a lot when it comes to punching paper and ringing steel
I would like to add an 11th reason to your list which I guess elaborates alot more on your #4&5.
So many hardcore range shooters who are not hunters of any great significance get the buck fever when something real and bigger than a varmint is in thier sights, I've seen it a couple of times and I've heard so many stories over the years. If you ever take a person out who is a 99% range shooter and a once in a blue moon tag along make sure they are in front of you or not carrying the gun.
 
straight question here , would you be ok having a new unknown guest shoot to the 600 yards mentioned after seeing a couple of shots at your zero target ( that is most commonly 100 or maybe 200 )?
because that is what is being suggested !
The fact that many of us might well make a good 600 yards , when it doesn't quite work out how we thought ( maybe a bad wind call , maybe an animal taking a step , misreading the wind contour or just plain error - the chances of stopping a run with a follow up when that beast is running is darn near impossible and needs a goodly bit of luck as in ten seconds or less it will be 800 , over a ridge etc
we are not talking a std 100 or 200 yard employers test and we are not talking of known clients of which we have had eyes on many times to attest their skills
Straight answer NO. I once had an American guy out. We spotted a stag circa 400. He said that he could nail that sucker from where we were standing. I said we will get closer and ended up shooting it under 200

My goal is to shoot as many deer as possible with as many dropping dead on the spot and with the least possible animal welfare issues. Again it's about assessing the equipment and the user's ability and shooting within the limits of these factors. Environmental factors also have a bearing on what is achievable. For example, a flat calm day, good platform, plenty time and feeling confident that the shot is highly achievable I have shot deer successfully where the range may raise some eyebrows. However change one or more of these factors then the distance has to reduce or decide not to shoot at all
Sometimes by the time you workout all the adjustments to conduct a long range shot it's quicker to reduce the distance.
A dead deer is a dead deer no matter what range it is shot at, likewise a wounded one is a wounded one.
 
My goal is to shoot as many deer as possible with as many dropping dead on the spot and with the least possible animal welfare issues. Again it's about assessing the equipment and the user's ability and shooting within the limits of these factors. Environmental factors also have a bearing on what is achievable. For example, a flat calm day, good platform, plenty time and feeling confident that the shot is highly achievable I have shot deer successfully where the range may raise some eyebrows. However change one or more of these factors then the distance has to reduce or decide not to shoot at all
Sometimes by the time you workout all the adjustments to conduct a long range shot it's quicker to reduce the distance.
A dead deer is a dead deer no matter what range it is shot at, likewise a wounded one is a wounded one.

+1

Sadly, the first thing asked about a successful stalk is often 'how far was it' and 'what calibre' long before any other aspect is discussed.

It's harder to shoot a deer standing behind a tree, in a thicket, offhand at 50m or less than it is to take a prone shot at a broadside red deer at 300m on the open hill.

There is a reason why Scotland (moreso Englandshire) has a deer problem.

The poacher was often the best 'deer manager' on the estate!
 
+1

Sadly, the first thing asked about a successful stalk is often 'how far was it' and 'what calibre' long before any other aspect is discussed.

It's harder to shoot a deer standing behind a tree, in a thicket, offhand at 50m or less than it is to take a prone shot at a broadside red deer at 300m on the open hill.

There is a reason why Scotland (moreso Englandshire) has a deer problem.

The poacher was often the best 'deer manager' on the estate!
Indeed.
My best stalks are ones where I get out of the car, walk 200m, find 2 suitable deer in range and within a couple of mins I am dragging 2 carcasses back to be gralloched.
My record this year including the gralloch for 2 deer, from the time I got to the farm to getting back into my car was a shade over 25 mins and I had 3 outings like this over the winter season just gone.
 
It was only built the same average birth time of those that would fight in WW1 !
So they should have been able to envisage what the area would look like in 2023. They would have been considered insane if they had said the area would be like it is now. No way they could have even guessed at it.
 
Indeed.
My best stalks are ones where I get out of the car, walk 200m, find 2 suitable deer in range and within a couple of mins I am dragging 2 carcasses back to be gralloched.
My record this year including the gralloch for 2 deer, from the time I got to the farm to getting back into my car was a shade over 25 mins and I had 3 outings like this over the winter season just gone.
You get out of your car? 😂😂
 
Indeed.
My best stalks are ones where I get out of the car, walk 200m, find 2 suitable deer in range and within a couple of mins I am dragging 2 carcasses back to be gralloched.
My record this year including the gralloch for 2 deer, from the time I got to the farm to getting back into my car was a shade over 25 mins and I had 3 outings like this over the winter season just gone.
I like when they are shot dead and no dragging involved. Dragging equals:- time lost and pain gained
 
I would like to add an 11th reason to your list which I guess elaborates alot more on your #4&5.
So many hardcore range shooters who are not hunters of any great significance get the buck fever when something real and bigger than a varmint is in thier sights, I've seen it a couple of times and I've heard so many stories over the years. If you ever take a person out who is a 99% range shooter and a once in a blue moon tag along make sure they are in front of you or not carrying the gun.
Hey, sometimes anyone get exited . I had to take a few moments just two years ago , it wasn't exactly an easy shot and it was an exemptional beast . I mean there is always an amount of excitement , i wouldn't want that to fade away completely as i would perhaps quit . The two things ability on targets and ability on targets are very different i have never been the slightest bit exited target shooting competing, it has always calmed me . When the time came that Competing bored me i packed it in 14 year old to mid 40s . I still like practicing / training but there is no excitement. besides shooting is a perishable skill.
 
I like when they are shot dead and no dragging involved. Dragging equals:- time lost and pain gained
Dragging as in carrying back to where I have left my gear. Two deer usually means in different spots, so I leave gear in the place where I intend to gralloch and bring the deer back to that point. Then they can go into my deer sack once I have tended to them.
 
I've not read the whole thread, but if these club attendees were probationers, after the 3-month probationary period, they should be better. If they had their certificates before joining the club and are that bad at shooting, then there is a problem. They may have had advice to join the club if they were not satisfied with their shooting.

East Holme range was closed to civilian clubs because the woodland behind the butts was considered part of the backstop and was found to contain a lot of bullet strikes, nearly all military bullets by all accounts. That's more than 3 feet above the target!
I think it was the intention to fell the timber, so half the height of the backstop would be gone.
 
Yes. However I can normally shoot half to 3/4 inch groups and still cock up, thankfully very rarely.
Erm, I think you have misunderstood.....
I was talking about numpty guests who claim to be able to shoot a Gnats Nads off at 1000yds, not my personal shooting abilities.
 
I've not read the whole thread, but if these club attendees were probationers, after the 3-month probationary period, they should be better. If they had their certificates before joining the club and are that bad at shooting, then there is a problem. They may have had advice to join the club if they were not satisfied with their shooting.

East Holme range was closed to civilian clubs because the woodland behind the butts was considered part of the backstop and was found to contain a lot of bullet strikes, nearly all military bullets by all accounts. That's more than 3 feet above the target!
I think it was the intention to fell the timber, so half the height of the backstop would be gone.
Read the thread.
 
Hey, sometimes anyone get exited . I had to take a few moments just two years ago , it wasn't exactly an easy shot and it was an exemptional beast . I mean there is always an amount of excitement , i wouldn't want that to fade away completely as i would perhaps quit . The two things ability on targets and ability on targets are very different i have never been the slightest bit exited target shooting competing, it has always calmed me . When the time came that Competing bored me i packed it in 14 year old to mid 40s . I still like practicing / training but there is no excitement. besides shooting is a perishable skill.
Your point is my point. You took the time. Those that only shoot pictures..........can stay innthe sandpit😄
 
Erm, I think you have misunderstood.....
I was talking about numpty guests who claim to be able to shoot a Gnats Nads off at 1000yds, not my personal shooting abilities.
No, I did understand. I was just highlighting the fact I can normally shoot 1/2" to 3/4" but I can still make a mistake just like anyone else, thankfully it's very rare
 
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