Maximum Range for Stalking

[Primate]

It's worth keeping in mind that it is far from always the case that the wind is the same over the whole 420yds between the firer and the targets as it is where you've measured it on the firing-point.

Indeed. Having had alot of practice with my .260 on gongs and on vermin out in the field using a kestrel and home loaded ammunition it's a great way to learn about extend range shooting and wind in the field. When you build up the knowledge, experience and practice 420yards isn't really very far. For a shot on a red deers shoulder would be very straightforward should I ever need to. I prefer to get as close as possible and head shoot though so irrelevant really.

 

[Dunwaters]

.270's that shoot too fast a bullet have this problem with soft points for example if your load allows you to shoot a 130gr softpoint at 3400fps , at 100yrds it may not expand at all and just go straight through.

Do the experiment with slower cartridges , shoot an empty coke ( other brands are available) can at 100yrds with a .17hmr and it will go straight through and the can and the can will not even move and no expansion on the 17's bullet at all but take a .22lr sub sonic at the same range and the bullet will expand knock the can open with a larger exit than entrance.

I’ve never seen a fast bullet fail to expand on an animal.
Try your 17hmr test again but this time use a full can and you’ll see what I mean. The 17 will leave you with a sheet of foil, 22 will poke through.
I could see the nose section possibly blowing up on impact with something like a Nosler partition and the stump carrying on alone if velocity is high enough, I’ve never seen it though.

 

[Tom D]

I've always said that I wouldn't criticise someone for a long shot. When you line up a shot and have the beast in the cross hairs only you know your chances of making the shot, you know your own abilities and those of your gun, or you should at least. You know the range and the drop, dial up or hold over. You know the wind and the drift at that range. And therefore you can make an informed decision as to whether to pull the trigger.

I don't know the answers to those questions in this case, only the shooter does. So I can't comment.

What I will say is that I have shot crows past 400 yds, and I have missed crows past 400 yds, and closer actually. And yes perversely I appear to value the life of a deer over that of a crow, I cant say why , I just do. Would I take a neck shot at 420? I doubt it, I would take a boiler room shot though.

I took a head shot on a yearling hind at 190 yds once, That was far enough for me for head / neck shots. It was filmed and is now on line on a popular shooting channel, not with me as the shooter though. The magic of TV...

Like I said in my earlier post, I didn't know the circumstances of the shot. Now I do and I have no problem with the shooters explanation.

Fair play to @Tulloch for coming on and explaining it. Plenty wouldn't have bothered.

 

[levigsp]

Perhaps I've misunderstood the anatomy, but I've always considered a side-on neck shot on a stag as trying to hit a hosepipe hidden in a overcoat-sleeve wrapped in a hearthrug. That is to say, a kill-zone that is an awkward and narrow shape, and not straightforward to locate.
From directly behind or in front, there's at least a vertical kill-zone - but it doesn't allow much error for wind.

Even discounting the increased mobility of the neck vs. the chest, I don't think either of those neck-shots is anything like as 'forgiving' as one into the large heart-and-lung area.

Sorry don't agree and I would hazard a guess that there are more highland stags neck shot the H/l. ant normal highland ranges of 1-200 yards a neck shot is just as easy on a stag as a H/l and drops most on the spot.

 

[levigsp]

Head or neck shots unfortunately are not a case of hit or miss ,seen too many lower jaws destroyed and shots that
have passed through the neck without hitting the spinal cord the result in both cases is a lingering death

Sorry I cannot agree with this statement. As I already said at least 50% of highland stags are neckshot, and possibly 50% of them are hit in the spinal chord area, yet they all went down. I'm not interested in what be4st practice papers an d the like show in their neat pictures, I'm interested in practical experience. Hit a stag anywhere centre neck with a modern softpoint bullet traveling at legal speeds etc and it will go down a lot quicker than any lung shot red deer. I have seen a lot of neck shot deer and NEVER seen one hit properly do a runner, on 3 occasions ive seen them hit very high or low and on each occasion they lunged and then stood again, only to be shot.

 

[Woodsmoke]

It has been a useful eye opener on the way deer are treated by some especially in scotland.

Another opinion from an expert who wasn't there

 

[levigsp]

That's interesting.
The bullet clearly lacked the oomph at that range to get all the way through the neck, but nevertheless expanded just fine - which is reassuring given the relatively-low impact velocity - perhaps about 2100fps? Standard softpoints are designed to behave like that I think - decent expansion down to lowish velocities.

I'd always imagined that a bullet would expand more at a higher impact velocity, and less at a lower: and I'm not sure I follow the argument that the expansion of the bullet is independent of the forces which act on it as it passes through the animal.
I'd have thought that had the bullet hit at a higher velocity, the force acting on it as it struck and on its way through would have been greater, and therefore the deformation would have been greater also - though you wouldn't have found most of the bullet, as it would have passed all the way through?

I have stated this many times and people don't get it. I first found this with 243, sent at stupid fast pace a sp would go straight through roe at 20 meters, at 150 id dropped them. Slow them down a lot and the same bullet would drop them close but not far. Hence the reason I started using lighter bullet in the HP as that dropped them clean at any range. But some bullets can go too fast to expand in soft flesh. Try tapping a lead nail through a wooden plank, not possible! hit it fast with a hammer and it goes in, same principle.

 

[User00035]

I guess you had him on a range before the outing? I know a guide of predominantly overseas stalkers who tells me similar stories. It leaves me not sure what to say to be honest. Its clearly wrong, but I am not sure what can be done about it. Assume the trophy hunting ban will stop it anyway.

He wasn't actually my client. I was guiding to help out a friend who had a bigger group of clients than he could deal with on his own. This client had shot with him before so he was a known quantity and I knew the ground we'd be going on really well from cull shooting.

I'm not keen on taking clients, especially European ones because (and I know this is a generalisation and not true of everyone) too many I've come across are just trigger pullers. You say a trophy ban will stop this but this group weren't interested in taking the trophy unless it was exceptional. They were happy to shoot the beast but after that they took not the slightest interest in it. They took no part in the gralloch or checking out what manner of animal they'd shot. Back at the larder the first things they did was crack open the beer and wander off to start drinking. They weren't interested in the carcass prep, the head or eating any meat they'd shot. They didn't even show their bucks to their mates or bother with photographs. It was just pile out of the cars, on the drink and back to the hotel for more.

On the other hand I've taken out novice UK stalkers, especially youngsters, who've been completely engaged from the start, who've listened, done everything right, been safe and committed, shown great enthusiasm and got involved with the whole process and been thrilled to bits with of their carcass which they've then bought and put to good use. I've all the time in the world for them, especially when they're strapped for cash and could only afford a lowly cull animal. They're invariably far better shots than the well-heeled can-swillers as well.

 

[levigsp]

Just for the record I don't advocate shooting red deer at long ranges, I normaly get 100 yards or so on the hill if I can.
But sometimes its necessary to shoot them further and I have where needs must.
I do practice at long range as I think everyone should. As for shooting at a wounded beast at that range, well my target would be to top of its shoulders, massive area od target, hit the spine or anywhere below and its job done.

 

[Mike L]

Another opinion from an expert who wasn't there

You really should quote the right person when handing out a telling off!!!!!

 

[Woodsmoke]

You really should quote the right person when handing out a telling off!!!!!

My bad. I had a section of saved draft at the top of that post that made it look as though I was quoting the wrong person. Sorted now, cheers

 

[foxinmad]

I didn’t think the 101 call was any defence to go out or am I wrong in this .Basc is trying to get an answer out of Police for some sort of unity across the counties as to what’s ok and what’s not apparently .Plenty of lads been told to stay in regardless of lamb deaths .Might be different in Scotland though .

I always call 101 when I'm going out in the evenings when I arrive on the ground I call and give them my details and approximately how long I will be there and get an incident number. When I'm finished I call 101 again and say I'm leaving grounds and close down the incident number. Not been out during the lockdown tho, not my full-time job.
Scotland yes, it's the way they want me to do it as I'm shooting in a built-up area and people will hear a rifle going off, and it saves the armed response from getting a bit nervous if someone calls in to report.

 

[sikamalc]

Gentlemen I think if I may say, this thread has run its course.
I would add again that many stalkers from the southern part of the UK do not get to shoot the distances that sometimes might be required in the highlands. As I said in one of my posts there are some keepers in Scotland who are excellent shots. One I know and admire very much, Tulloch, may know Ronnie R. He used to shoot for Scotland with a 308 Lakelander rifle with open sights. He is now well past retirement age but a man who has more knowledge of highland stalking than most will ever know.

Lets move on please, I think we have discussed this issue enough?

 

[Sika-Hunter]

Sorry I cannot agree with this statement.

You may not agree with @bogtrotter statement but this is certainly the case , its never just a Hit or Miss and on a Stag with a good mane there is plenty of room for error

 

[Tulloch]

Gentlemen I think if I may say, this thread has run its course.
I would add again that many stalkers from the southern part of the UK do not get to shoot the distances that sometimes might be required in the highlands. As I said in one of my posts there are some keepers in Scotland who are excellent shots. One I know and admire very much, Tulloch, may know Ronnie R. He used to shoot for Scotland with a 308 Lakelander rifle with open sights. He is now well past retirement age but a man who has more knowledge of highland stalking than most will ever know.

Lets move on please, I think we have discussed this issue enough?

Ronnie is a Legend in the world, I cannot say I know anyone else that comes even close.

I wanted this to run its course because its never just black and white. I don't advocate long shots, this was definitely not my intention of my instagram post it was a follow on about bullets.

I do a lot of reviews etc and I do communicate with many folk in the States all pro shooters albeit not always hunters. The language used in my post that was copied here was NOT language I wouldnhave used in this forum and this thread highlights why I would not have started this conversation in this forum.

The OP probably rightly so was looking for a likeminded audience and for the most part had attained that, but, I was glad of the conversation.

It is true a head or neck shot is actually a very common shot taken by those who's main object is meat preservation, too many "best practice" shots penetrate the diaphragm and pierce the gut and then go into the food chain but we accept this because thw shot is easier.

The emphasis on the distance is the main thing here and it is a subject I welcome being scrutines over. Like most I have been shooting since I was a child I am 40 years old now and like every person here who shoots regularly I have had some real doozies, but it had always been me thats had to deal wuth those doozies never have I had to ask someone else to fix my problems .

Its been a very good debate and

 

[howa243]

I'm not keen on taking clients, especially European ones because (and I know this is a generalisation and not true of everyone) too many I've come across are just trigger pullers.

I have heard this before and for some reason am completely taken aback by it. I always believed that hunting/stalking was ore of an accepted way of life in mainland Europe than it is here and consequently I expected them to value and be respectful of what they are shooting.

I know a bloke who takes many European shooters out after Chinks and he says that they regularly shoot them up the arse.

 

[sikamalc]

Ronnie is a Legend in the world, I cannot say I know anyone else that comes even close.

I wanted this to run its course because its never just black and white. I don't advocate long shots, this was definitely not my intention of my instagram post it was a follow on about bullets.

I do a lot of reviews etc and I do communicate with many folk in the States all pro shooters albeit not always hunters. The language used in my post that was copied here was NOT language I wouldnhave used in this forum and this thread highlights why I would not have started this conversation in this forum.

The OP probably rightly so was looking for a likeminded audience and for the most part had attained that, but, I was glad of the conversation.

It is true a head or neck shot is actually a very common shot taken by those who's main object is meat preservation, too many "best practice" shots penetrate the diaphragm and pierce the gut and then go into the food chain but we accept this because thw shot is easier.


The emphasis on the distance is the main thing here and it is a subject I welcome being scrutines over. Like most I have been shooting since I was a child I am 40 years old now and like every person here who shoots regularly I have had some real doozies, but it had always been me thats had to deal wuth those doozies never have I had to ask someone else to fix my problems .

Its been a very good debate and

Fair play to you. Hope to drop in and see Ronnie later this year when I'm back up with clients again. Have had the privilege of stalking with Ronnie some years back and he also gillied for me for a number of years. Spent a few hours having dinner with him and Margaret last year.
Wonderful people. Old School.

 

[Alistair]

I did a neck shot on a calf once. Went well, instant kill, about 150yds. Didn't post it on Facebook though.

I could also say (for the benefit of my FB admirers) that I took it because I am a god amongst mere mortals, a hunter to make Artemis blush. The reality though, is that I got a bit excited, rushed it and pulled my nice safe HL shot.

As for long shots, well. For me as a recreational stalker, I'd say that stalking in to a beast is exciting and highly enjoyable. Following up on a wounded beast however is about as far from my idea of 'fun' as I can imagine. I'd respectfully submit that, irrespective of ones skill level, doing more of the first will result in less of the latter and as a whole improve ones enjoyment of the hobby.

 

[William Grant]

For some people it's all about there ego, boasting wanting to look the big cheese and then they wonder why they get flak on social media.

 

[countrryboy]

No publicity is bad publicity for some especially if you need to fill dozens of syndicate places each year. It was pretty obviously posted just to cause controversy in the first place so I wouldn't worry about the fact that you shared it. It has been a useful eye opener on the way deer are treated by some especially in scotland.

I'd say that is possibly a bit harsh.

Not justifying/condoning this and I dinae ken Tulloch but he's made a very good job of defending himself and sounds like puts the time in practicing etc.

1 thing I will say is the way many sites are harvested now, there has been a trend in many places for bigger sites/clear fells, esp larger forested areas in Scotland.
Some sites ur now taking multiple coupes that in the past would be 3 or 4 different jobs, 1 I was on was 35K tonne ish, be a bugger to manage in the future the area it covers, bloody massive.
Bad enough walkng over clear fells/restock sites without trying to stalk over them so sometimes it will be easier gearing ur rifles up for longer ranges if and when needs must.

The main thing for novices etc is to really put the time in practicing esp at longer ranges if that is ur thing.
Ull soon see the effect wind can have no matter how skillfull u are or how good it equipment, at longer ranges it doesnae take much breeze

The other thing no matter how good u are and how good weather conditions are is reading the deer.
Is it likely to move etc, always important but even more so when going for ur smaller target area shots and at longer distances when u need the Der to be still for 1 second or so.

These are things that experienced stalkers will be doing all the time before taking shots and will know when a shot is doable 1 day but not the next.
Not really my thing so don't practice at these ranges but don't really have a problem with Experienced shots shooting to the conditions as long as not pushing them.

Be bloody hard enough work finding ur shot site 400yd away even with a dead deer lying there, esp if u drop into acouple of hollows, and lose sight of it. Again where exp comes in or a dog.