Natural England Pilot Sussex Woods Landscape Deer Management Initiative

[big ears]

Just a thought do DSC1 then do a 1 DAY course on gralloching and carcasses prep instead of DSC2 to get large game meat hygiene

With all respect that is the issue, no one wants to spend time learning. A quick one day course and that’s all they need.
As I said it’s a race to the bottom.

 

[wytonpjs]

With all respect that is the issue, no one wants to spend time learning. A quick one day course and that’s all they need.
As I said it’s a race to the bottom.

With all respect, it is different! Prior to DMQ's recent changes you didn't need to do an extra day's course to get the LGHC as it was included in the DSC1. However, I strongly agree with you that reducing the DSC2 ICRs to one and putting the onus on a small band of assessors was IMHO a retrograde step.

 

[bottletopbill]

I can see what you are saying as i have heard this from a stalker about carcases being sent to a dealer unfit .
My suggestion of a one day course was to improve the handling of a carcase and i should have stated with training from different stalks as I am doing.
But this was more for the stalkers who want to consume there own stalk and not for sale to a G D .

 

[devon deer stalker]

With all respect, it is different! Prior to DMQ's recent changes you didn't need to do an extra day's course to get the LGHC as it was included in the DSC1. However, I strongly agree with you that reducing the DSC2 ICRs to one and putting the onus on a small band of assessors was IMHO a retrograde step.

Or, some don't bother with DMQ at all and just get the LGHC and deliver carcasses to the AGHE
I know of a couple deer stalkers who have done this, but the future doesn't look great for them if our local AGHE signs up to the scheme

 

[User00053]

Don’t know about today but not long ago if natural England deemed a ssi in unfavourable condition through grazing pressure/ munching wonderful things could happen if funding could be had.edit all dependant on who and what you were.

 

[Home Loader]

As to standards I completely agree. The awful state of some carcasses seen in my local GD is truly atrocious. Not fit even for dog food.

In part the game dealers are at fault as they should reject them but I’ve heard stories of GD being threatened with being taken to court by groups over this issue.

Standards are underpinned by good training and also by the attitude of the stalker. The changes in the DSC2 in my opinion are a race to the bottom with regards to teaching and training practical skills and were driven by greed and money for the organisations rather than improving standards of carcass prep.

I couldn't agree more

Enter the new kids on the block (you can call them what you like) who will present themselves as “properly” trained and able to provide a better standard than before. “Much better than your usual stalkers “ chat line.

What then happens is they push out the existing stalkers, some of whom are doing a very good job, take on huge contracts they cannot fulfil and it collapses back to chaos.

If you do some digging in the industry in the area shown on the map, through the pilot scheme already running, there has been a herculean effort already put in, using present stalking teams but adding some team collaboration (getting estates to talk and work together! Not bringing in "others") and organisation especially in the area of the night license which is huge and having the right effect. This position will hopefully help to spread the good effect, of the pilot scheme and support.
So far there are no contractors just good work by well organised teams already in place on estates.

 

[User00053]

Softly, softly, approach and carrots for the good sounds like the way forwards.

 

[User00053]

Don’t understand how people can be involved in responsibly culling deer or stalking for pleasure can be sending substantial amounts of carcasses to game dealers that are unfit unless some real cowboys and girls out there who are not fit. Not hard to hit something in right spot nor paunch a rabbit let alone a fricking deer.
Ok sometimes it can happen with a shot so if game dealer takes up to him to salvage, if not onus not on him to dispose.
Plenty of competent stalkers capable of doing the job and willing and very able who are paid or not to do so.
More deer need shooting so a percentage will be unfit, so many carcasses look bad but are salavaged into pound notes. Can think of a few who are passionate about stalking and pay for the pleasure but cannot stomach removing puddings.

 

[tattie]

From a Scottish perspective, without reading all the details of what is planned.

Id say that the various agencies are banging their heads against the wall a bit with estates, landowners and lease holders with profit making businesses. This isn't a new thing and no doubt the shoot more deer/ control the numbers messages are not getting through. So time for a template to see if they can make things work.

The sticking point will be that the "sporting agents" "estates" and "leaseholders" will do their best to not bother and continue as they obviously have being doing for a long time leading to the problems that are arising from their lack of listening.

There will be, I have no doubt plenty of folk within this area that do a sterling job and cull to the numbers they have to. So not everyone can be blamed.

However once the powers that be start cranking up the efforts to get numbers down the Businesses within the affected areas will start to kick off and protest.


Night shooting and more pressure is possibly what is needed in these areas and these things do not go hand in hand with an agent/ estate/ leaseholder taking a relative newcomer out and getting them in to beasts within 5 minutes of getting out of their pickup. Their easy money cash cow bubble is going to burst.

This is exactly the same scenario that has happened all over Scotland on open hill ground and forest plantations, get the numbers down or else we will send others in to do it.
An example was reported here in north Sutherland a couple of months ago.

If the numbers of deer on the ground are affecting the status of the designated area the powers that be will act accordingly.


Plenty experienced contractors in Scotland that would be willing to have a go as they have been doing up here for a number of years.

The comments of carcase quality and facilities for putting the carcases to and through are good as this needs to be addressed big time.
Game Dealers have an uncanny knack of suiting themselves.
only last year we had the (Not shot with Copper We will not take it) Aye right, the carcases being shot with lead are still being taken and no premium given to the folk that are and have made the transition to non toxic.

I too have seen very poor carcases within game dealers establishments and larders.

Qualifications to an extent will help but there will be plenty who know it all and have not a clue, regardless of how many 1000s of deer they have shot and there will be newcomers to the sport who although they do not shoot anything near the numbers of the "old hand" and they will leave a nice tidy job through care and attention
.
But like every trade/ job, you get those that leave a tidy job and those that don't and don't always assume it is the newbys that haven't a clue.


To all those with herds of fallow and Muntjac ( that some turn their noses up at) plus the silence of nobody trying to remove the sika populations in other parts I'd say just watch how this goes as the powers that be won't stop in one area.


Cheers

 

[User00053]

Vacancy for a hearts and minds guy and diplomat plus juggler sounds like a challenge getting parties on same page or as many that can achieve numbers. The very bottom line eventually will be carrot and stick if all else fails.

 

[Taff]

What’s the betting on a ex BASC , bds or fc person gets the job along with a lot more stalking.

 

[User00053]

ex army with organisation and people skills level 1 and 2, pink trousers and flock of hair. Seriously though think it would be a nightmare if taken seriously in the long haul but good short term career and contact making move with long hours endless meetings developing a pathological hatred of deer and stalkers.

 

[User00038]

Suppose a 'hearts and minds' person gets the job and a landowner consequently agrees to cull deer on their land for the first time, on the grounds that this is a thought out programme of culling to try to reach sustainable numbers for the wider area.

And suppose that this is not actually a 'jobs for the boys' conspiracy situation and the co-ordinator says 'I am not in a position to recommend anyone.' (Realistically, this is going to be the most likely situation...)

How does the landowner go about finding and/or selecting a suitable stalker, who will actually try to do what the landowner and the pilot area are asking?

 

[User00053]

Suppose a 'hearts and minds' person gets the job and a landowner consequently agrees to cull deer on their land for the first time, on the grounds that this is a thought out programme of culling to try to reach sustainable numbers for the wider area.

And suppose that this is not actually a 'jobs for the boys' conspiracy situation and the co-ordinator says 'I am not in a position to recommend anyone.' (Realistically, this is going to be the most likely situation...)

How does the landowner go about finding and/or selecting a suitable stalker, who will actually try to do what the landowner and the pilot area are asking?

Enter the preferred contractor funded by whatever scheme may be put in place, failing that get Fred and his mates and pay lip service, who knows but something will happen for better or worse

 

[User00038]

Enter the preferred contractor funded by whatever scheme may be put in place, failing that get Fred and his mates and pay lip service, who knows but something will happen for better or worse

And suppose that this is not actually a 'jobs for the boys' conspiracy situation and the co-ordinator says 'I am not in a position to recommend anyone.' (Realistically, this is going to be the most likely situation...)

But working with my supposition?

 

[User00053]

Has to be a serious attempt to address the problem is my guess and working with your supposition initially left to land owner to paddle own canoe for a while at least.

 

[John Doe]

Have any of you seen the pricing guidelines for the tender? £10-£20k if I am reading it correctly? Clearly not anticipating it to be a full time position for the year.

 

[User00038]

Has to be a serious attempt to address the problem is my guess and working with your supposition initially left to land owner to paddle own canoe for a while at least.

I think this is a big concern for landowners who have only been persuaded to cull because it will form part of a well-planned and monitored programme. In the situation of this thread, the participation of these landowners is crucial. But for most, paddling their own canoe is not going to be an option. So, I think this is an opportunity for stalkers to create a register to be called upon.

But each of us needs to decide whether we are motivated primarily by deer population management or whether we use deer stalking to support our passion for rifles.

 

[User00038]

Have any of you seen the pricing guidelines for the tender? £10-£20k if I am reading it correctly? Clearly not anticipating it to be a full time position for the year.

The document says that the role will be part-time (approx. 35-40 days per annum) depending on how the pilot develops but the successful applicant will be expected to commit at least 35 days to the project. There's no doubt that whoever gets the role will put in a lot more time than that.

 

[User00053]

I think this is a big concern for landowners who have only been persuaded to cull because it will form part of a well-planned and monitored programme. In the situation of this thread, the participation of these landowners is crucial. But for most, paddling their own canoe is not going to be an option. So, I think this is an opportunity for stalkers to create a register to be called upon.

Best of luck and hope things go the way you wish in the future.