Need for higher standards of marksmanship?

[User00040]

Hi all,

I am writing as I completed a couple of stalking related marksmanship tests and had some questions for those in the know.

1- Why was the 'Highland' part of the DSC1 which required a longer distance (175 yrd i believe) string of shots on target, dropped? Lack of suitable ranges or a desire for uniformity?

2-There seems to be a high degree of reliance on bipods and sticks now, whatever happened to offhand and sling-supported positions?

3-Looking back in time, there were a higher number of 'gallery' type indoor rimfire or air-rifle ranges,they would offer great opportunities for practise and improvement but what has happened to them?

4-The Olympics used to feature an event, the 100m running deer target. Why are we not still using this for training/practise? Would be ideal for those who need to stop a wounded beast and prevent a long follow-up. I believe some continental countries have a similar requirement for their hunting license test.

Went stalking recently with someone, a hind and calf were on a knoll (unsafe shot due to skyline) but where heading behind a raised mound and down towards a depression which would bring them into range and offer a good broadside position. I knew they would stop there for a few seconds and made my companion aware of this.

However, from our position one would need to take the shot from a seated position, as the bipod would not have given enough elevation.

Despite the deer presenting well, no shot was made. I applaud anyone who refuses to take a shot if they don't feel comfortable with it, but I know that it would have been a safe and humane shot if that position had been used.

Had a conversation recently with a group where the subject of practise came up, the fact that I actually did some to improve my ability instead of just checking zero was seen as a waste of time, money and ammunition!

 

[Tim.243]

2-There seems to be a high degree of reliance on bipods and sticks now, whatever happened to offhand and sling-supported positions?

My shooting as like many was started off on air guns under the close eye of my Dad, following on to .22lr shooting rabbits...
coupled with starting on a .410 also a bolt action smooth bore garden gun.

For me my deer shooting is an extension of my fox shooting for a number of farms, fox shooting is not a " oh well we saw some deer but next time" it is for me results based much the same as crop protection.
Using the correct tool for the job is why I shoot off quad sticks. where will your off hand shooting come into play with a jumpy fox 200 yards out in the middle of a field...?

Same thing would apply if your off hand shot (or a dead rest shot) was pulled with you know faced with a 200 yard shot also your heart rate off the scale..

All disciplines have there place, however the correct choice is the welfare of the quarry.

A target out in the region of 175/200 would be interesting on the entry level test, mind you I have seen people missing a 100 yard target because of lack of preparation.

Tim.243

 

[tikka_madras]

V

4-The Olympics used to feature an event, the 100m running deer target. Why are we not still using this for training/practise? Would be ideal for those who need to stop a wounded beast and prevent a long follow-up. I believe some continental countries have a similar requirement for their hunting license test.

The BSRC still maintain a 100-metre running deer range, although it might be a bit far to travel for many! I like the Swedish test- where the first shot is taken freehand at a static deer, which begins to run on report. You have to reload and take the second shot before it vanishes behind a wall.

 

[Dalua]

2-There seems to be a high degree of reliance on bipods and sticks now, whatever happened to offhand and sling-supported positions?

My shooting as like many was started off on air guns under the close eye of my Dad, following on to .22lr shooting rabbits...
coupled with starting on a .410 also a bolt action smooth bore garden gun.

For me my deer shooting is an extension of my fox shooting for a number of farms, fox shooting is not a " oh well we saw some deer but next time" it is for me results based much the same as crop protection.
Using the correct tool for the job is why I shoot off quad sticks. where will your off hand shooting come into play with a jumpy fox 200 yards out in the middle of a field...?

Same thing would apply if your off hand shot (or a dead rest shot) was pulled with you know faced with a 200 yard shot also your heart rate off the scale..

All disciplines have there place, however the correct choice is the welfare of the quarry.

A target out in the region of 175/200 would be interesting on the entry level test, mind you I have seen people missing a 100 yard target because of lack of preparation.

Tim.243

I don't think the OP is sugessting that one shouldn't develop skills, as you clearly have, in shooting off various kinds of rest.

He seems to me to be pointing out quite sensibly that there is a wide variety of positions from which one can shoot, both with and without sticks/bipods, and wondering why folk don't practice using them. In the case he gives, competence in the sitting/unsupported position would have secured the Rifle a hind and calf.

Off-hand is particularly important, I think, since that might well be the only way a quick follow-up shot can be given to a wounded animal (of whatever size). That is not a circumstance in which one would want to discharge one's first ever off-hand shot.

Interestingly, sitting is one of the positions which is used in the Sporting Rifle shoots at the local club - generally without supports at a roebuck target at 100yds, and supported (sticks or bipod) at 200yds. I think I'd probably have been happy to take the beasts Caberslash described - but I'm perhaps lucky to have the local facilities and the time to develop my riflemanship in this way.

Having said that, though, a lot of it can be practiced at home with snap-caps or an airgun.

 

[Selous]

I agree with the OP despite taking the majority of shots from quad sticks or bipod. I can think of a few deer where I have used the sitting position and equally a few hinds on the hill where the bipod was not tall enough so I just converted to a prone no bipod position. The key is maintaining the ability to be flexible when building a shooting position,use what you have available in the time you have to make the best position you can. The best practice for stalking I have found is precision rifle shooting

 

[stubear]

To be honest I think generally we have a pretty poor selection of ranges with options for different disciplines available. Look at the guys in the US - they spend months preparing for the season and seem to be really happy with taking 3-600y shots at deer. I'm not saying we should go to that extent (and frankly where apart from Scotland are you going to be making such a shot) but I did see someone say that for every day they spend in the field they want to spend at least a day on the range practicing.

If you're in the You can go to Bisley but so far as I know you cant practice shooting off sticks or from any other position other than prone. You can do this at BSRA but they're not part of the main campus so you need separate membership to get access to their ranges.

Silverstone is a good range but you can only shoot moderated rifles there.

And a lot of clubs require membership before you can shoot at their ranges....

I'm not sure where else there is really thats easily accessible. Its great in the US where theres ranges all over the place that you can just turn up to and shoot but over here I do think its really tricky. I think if there were more places you could easily access then people would be more inclined to go get some practice in.

I'm really lucky that Dorking rifle club does allow me to practice off sticks so I can spend a bit of time doing that with different rifles.

 

[Dalua]

The best practice for stalking I have found is precision rifle shooting

Interesting!
What sort of targets, ranges and positions does that discipline involve?

 

[bowji john]

I wouldn't discourage any kind of practice

I shoot every day and am lucky to be able to do so on my own patch

I started out bench rest on ever decreasing sizes of target at 30m to 150m

Then widened my skills to off sticks

I now almost exclusively shoot standing up, unsupported on 5 " and 3" gongs @ 100m to a count of 3 seconds

I've returned to this routine because of abysmal performance at Carl's in Mozambique last year

There is a tendency to avoid what you are not good at - I've always been poor at unsupported shooting

After several thousand rounds I am delighted to report that I can occasionally (2 out of 5 typically) hit the 3" @ 100m with the .22LR

It is great great fun so I'm a fan of unsupported practice - even if I wouldn't use it on a live creature given a choice

 

[Heym SR20]

Fundamentally deer stalking in the UK has been heavily influenced by Highland style red deer stalking where it is all done prone off a bipod. Most Stalkers taking out guests work on the basis of lowest common denominator and prone off a bipod at a stationary target offers the easiest way to ensure a clean kill.

only in the last 20 years has stalking a more mainstream Fieldsport. 20 years ago down in south Oxfordshire there was the odd Muntjac and a herd of fallow in and and around Stonor deer park. And never saw a Roe. Nowadays roe, fallow and muntjac are all over the place.

as for ranges - well 20years ago it was Bisley. We are getting a growing number of ranges catering for rifles, but until recently it was shoot prone or off a bench

as for use of sticks etc - a lot of rifle did not grow up shooting rifles. It takes time to become a good freehand shot. You need to put hundreds if not thousands of shots downrange. So for the new stalker taking a standing or seated shot it has to be off sticks. And you then rely on them.

Overseas where rifke shooting is the norm then there are lots of rifle ranges with moving targets etc. and they all practice regularly. A state enforced shooting test each year keeps them current. My experience of german hunters is they are good on close range snap shots / running shots where shooting from instinct. Give them a longer range shot at undisturbed deer off a bipod or rest then brain takes over and they miss.

On my visits to Germany there are more ranges open to public within 1hr of Paderborn than probably a large chunk of the UK. But they don’t have many sporting clay layouts.

 

[VSS]

I know that I need a higher standard of marksmanship. I can't speak for anyone else.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Very few ranges over 100m exist in Germany the few that I know of are 300m but I have never visited them. Most shooting here takes place at a maximum of 200m my longest shot so far was 145m.

 

[Klenchblaize]

Join the BSRC. You'll have just under 5 years to develop all the aspects of marksmanship the Op refers to at Bisley before the NRA pull the plug on our range.

I'm gonna start 2020 by relearning how to shoot well off hand (no sticks).

K

 

[Buchan]

At the North-West range days, we try and make it as awkward as possible, simulating real positions eg over an angled wall.

I'd like to make one where you walk to the top of the hill and have to shoot within 30s, but I'd be lynched

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Get a target air rifle and practise often in the garden as it will create memory functions that will cross over to hunting.

 

[User00040]

To restate my point, I really respect the Rifle I mentioned for not trying for a shot that they did not feel comfortable with.

Sure, practise a much as you want or need to, but as Dirty Harry said; 'a man's got to know his limits...'

Many articles whether online or in print talk about 'long-range Highland work'. I wouldn't come expecting any of that, but then again there is no argument against being able to make a long shot.

A wet and windy winter's day on the West coast is the last place you want to make a 'long range' shot, I have had to learn the hard way that you can sometimes have just as much drift from wind as you would have drop from gravity at range.

An uncertain mixture of curiosity and dread filled me when I heard of what Dutch and German hunters go through to get a license (on which I believe is also mandatory for firearms ownership), sounded like a mix of written tests and practical shooting which made the DSC1 sound trivial.

If a course will give the attendee a positive outcome, whether it be a reinforcement of what they already know or even teaching something new and useful then great, it might just be worth their time and money.

So far, nearly every ticket/qualification that I have undertaken and subsequently passed involved the instructor assuming that you have already being doing some of whatever the course is about, whether it be driving a tractor to plough a field or using a chainsaw to fell a tree, this implied experience means you should already know these things.

How and where (and possibly why) you could have gained this knowledge before going on the course is pretty much a mystery to everyone except you (hopefully!).

Example of where such a skill could come from, if you happened to go to school in Russia:



Where do we expect the following generations to learn how to correctly and safely carry out practical and physical tasks, many of used to be vital to survival but are now on the decline, especially when no-one went out of their way to show and teach them these skills?

Marksmanship is just one facet of this expansive curriculum which will hopefully not be forgotten.

 

[scrumbag]

I think marksmanship can always be improved and I think marksmanship coaching is being neglected. Schools don't do it anymore, BSRC doesn't coach on how to shoot running deer...

 

[Klenchblaize]

I think marksmanship can always be improved and I think marksmanship coaching is being neglected. Schools don't do it anymore, BSRC doesn't coach on how to shoot running deer...

I'm sure if you asked JMK he would still be happy to. But if you mean the BSRC no longer list training days in the yearly planner you may be correct as it was only published yesterday and I have yet to look at it.

K

 

[scrumbag]

I'm sure if you asked JMK he would still be happy to. But if you mean the BSRC no longer list training days in the yearly planner you may be correct as it was only published yesterday and I have yet to look at it.

K

I don't think they've done it for years Klenchblaize. I can't remember seeing one advertised and I've been a member off and on since ~2009.

I've recently joined Ham and Petersham as well to do a little more gallery rifle and small bore stuff. I've had more coaching time in 3 months (including the quiet time over the Christmas period) than the thick end of a decade with BSRC.

I love BSRC, I think it's a great club with nice facilities and a pretty good membership. But at coaching, they suck.

 

[Dr.T.]

Interesting thread and I couldn't agree more. I was really surprised by the standard of shooting on my DSC1 course, where the average barn door would have been safe (even when shot from a bipod). Which was odd, as most rifles "shoot 0.5 MOA bughole groups all day if they do their part".

Joking aside, I think that shooting under pressure has a big part to play. Outside of competition shooting, I guess this is hard to replicate on most ranges.

 

[Kalahari]

I need a higher standard. I practice freehand with a air rifle as it is good for me. If a bit humiliating!

David.