Neilson Sonic lead free bullets

[NickJ]

I was listening to the Deercast podcast episode with Ben Heath of Deerbox which was, in parts at least very interesting.

He talked about the fact that he imports the Neilson bullets, copper with a brass wedge, has anyone had much experience with the brand in the field?

Discussing this with a stalking pal @JH83 we thought it was interesting that a venison dealer was voting for a round that is design to fragment petals. It seems contrary. Obviously lead is the most poisonous of metals used in bullet construction but is there no toxicity associated with copper and/or brass we wondered?

Ben did say he head or neck shoots most of his deer.

I’d add the fact that in my hill rifle, a 30:06 I also use biometal (versus monometal) bullets via factory non lead Geco Evo rounds that are copper with a twin tin core. This because they reviewed top in the Fieldsports Britian research piece, my Sako 85 liked them and they were the least expensive brand my dealer said they were getting a relatively consistent supply of.
These rounds I have used on around 20 reds and 20 roe in the last 14 months and they seem to create a bigger wound channel and exit wound than the lead I was using previously in that calibre.
However, associated with the above another stalking colleague who is also a vet @Selous also mentioned that the greater fragmenting nature of these biometal bullets was slightly at odds with whole non toxic drive. Incidentally some years ago he put a deer shot with lead in the chest through his MRI scanner and the image showing the sheer amount of very tiny lead fragments over such a large area was at the very least enough to make you sit up and listen to the whole non lead subject.

It has made me seriously consider moving away from the Geco rounds.

Interested in people’s thoughts.

 

[Magnificent 7]

I was listening to the Deercast podcast episode with Ben Heath of Deerbox which was, in parts at least very interesting.

He talked about the fact that he imports the Neilson bullets, copper with a brass wedge, has anyone had much experience with the brand in the field?

Discussing this with a stalking pal @JH83 we thought it was interesting that a venison dealer was voting for a round that is design to fragment petals. It seems contrary. Obviously lead is the most poisonous of metals used in bullet construction but is there no toxicity associated with copper and/or brass we wondered?

Ben did say he head or neck shoots most of his deer.

I’d add the fact that in my hill rifle, a 30:06 I also use biometal (versus monometal) bullets via factory non lead Geco Evo rounds that are copper with a twin tin core. This because they reviewed top in the Fieldsports Britian research piece, my Sako 85 liked them and they were the least expensive brand my dealer said they were getting a relatively consistent supply of.
These rounds I have used on around 20 reds and 20 roe in the last 14 months and they seem to create a bigger wound channel and exit wound than the lead I was using previously in that calibre.
However, associated with the above another stalking colleague who is also a vet @Selous also mentioned that the greater fragmenting nature of these biometal bullets was slightly at odds with whole non toxic drive. Incidentally some years ago he put a deer shot with lead in the chest through his MRI scanner and the image showing the sheer amount of very tiny lead fragments over such a large area was at the very least enough to make you sit up and listen to the whole non lead subject.

It has made me seriously consider moving away from the Geco rounds.

Interested in people’s thoughts.

Just googled out of interest this and copper is pretty nasty also if ingested doesn’t some brass contain lead to aid with workability ? If so kind of defeats the object doesn’t it.

 

[Acm]

I was listening to the Deercast podcast episode with Ben Heath of Deerbox which was, in parts at least very interesting.

He talked about the fact that he imports the Neilson bullets, copper with a brass wedge, has anyone had much experience with the brand in the field?

Discussing this with a stalking pal @JH83 we thought it was interesting that a venison dealer was voting for a round that is design to fragment petals. It seems contrary. Obviously lead is the most poisonous of metals used in bullet construction but is there no toxicity associated with copper and/or brass we wondered?

Ben did say he head or neck shoots most of his deer.

I’d add the fact that in my hill rifle, a 30:06 I also use biometal (versus monometal) bullets via factory non lead Geco Evo rounds that are copper with a twin tin core. This because they reviewed top in the Fieldsports Britian research piece, my Sako 85 liked them and they were the least expensive brand my dealer said they were getting a relatively consistent supply of.
These rounds I have used on around 20 reds and 20 roe in the last 14 months and they seem to create a bigger wound channel and exit wound than the lead I was using previously in that calibre.
However, associated with the above another stalking colleague who is also a vet @Selous also mentioned that the greater fragmenting nature of these biometal bullets was slightly at odds with whole non toxic drive. Incidentally some years ago he put a deer shot with lead in the chest through his MRI scanner and the image showing the sheer amount of very tiny lead fragments over such a large area was at the very least enough to make you sit up and listen to the whole non lead subject.

It has made me seriously consider moving away from the Geco rounds.

Interested in people’s thoughts.

You had said in another thread that your going to use the yew tree tlr in a 6.5 mate, great bullets I’m sure but worth noting that they also fragment and will leave some metals in the carcass.

 

[Colonel]

I now reload Nielsen bullets as well as Accubond bullets for my 30-06 which shot to the same poa. I don’t have a problem with the Nielsen bullets

 

[NickJ]

You had said in another thread that your going to use the yew tree tlr in a 6.5 mate, great bullets I’m sure but worth noting that they also fragment and will leave some metals in the carcass.

I did and am but didn’t know that tbh

 

[Acm]

I did and am but didn’t know that tbh

I’m in the same boat as you, I’d love to use a British made bullet, but I really want somthing that exits the carcass and leaves nothing behind.

 

[Magnificent 7]

I did and am but didn’t know that tbh

I’ve recovered some copper shards from the yewtree from carcasses but I’d say most metal
Bullets will leave some form of memory travelling at the speed they do and hitting bone ect

 

[webley701]

NickJ,
The Nielsen bullets break into three relatively large ‘petals’ & a solid rear part; there’s also the brass nose pin. They are not fragmenting in the sense which you seem to be concerned about.

 

[Selous]

I was listening to the Deercast podcast episode with Ben Heath of Deerbox which was, in parts at least very interesting.

He talked about the fact that he imports the Neilson bullets, copper with a brass wedge, has anyone had much experience with the brand in the field?

Discussing this with a stalking pal @JH83 we thought it was interesting that a venison dealer was voting for a round that is design to fragment petals. It seems contrary. Obviously lead is the most poisonous of metals used in bullet construction but is there no toxicity associated with copper and/or brass we wondered?

Ben did say he head or neck shoots most of his deer.

I’d add the fact that in my hill rifle, a 30:06 I also use biometal (versus monometal) bullets via factory non lead Geco Evo rounds that are copper with a twin tin core. This because they reviewed top in the Fieldsports Britian research piece, my Sako 85 liked them and they were the least expensive brand my dealer said they were getting a relatively consistent supply of.
These rounds I have used on around 20 reds and 20 roe in the last 14 months and they seem to create a bigger wound channel and exit wound than the lead I was using previously in that calibre.
However, associated with the above another stalking colleague who is also a vet @Selous also mentioned that the greater fragmenting nature of these biometal bullets was slightly at odds with whole non toxic drive. Incidentally some years ago he put a deer shot with lead in the chest through his MRI scanner and the image showing the sheer amount of very tiny lead fragments over such a large area was at the very least enough to make you sit up and listen to the whole non lead subject.

It has made me seriously consider moving away from the Geco rounds.

Interested in people’s thoughts.

I have heard good reports of the Neilson Sonic bullets from very credible sources. I have concerns that the few but relatively large petals will carry large amounts of energy into the tissues and increase the risk of rumen perforations. The same can be said about the other fragmenting designs such as the Virtus Merlin and Eagle. And in our limited experience with the Virtus this concern is real but they do work exceptionally well, albeit with greater meat damage than the mainly non-fragmenting designs like the Barnes. What is clear is that there are no such things as the perfect bullet for all occasions and if you want something for use at long range then meat damage in close might be an issue. This was the same for lead bullets incidentally.
With regard to copper toxicity there are two main points. The first is that copper is a trace element that is needed for the mammalian body to function optimally. In high doses it can be toxic but at low levels it is beneficial. The second is that copper breaks into a few large fragments rather than hundreds of tiny to microscopic fragments which massively increases the surface area and therefore bioavailability.

 

[Magnificent 7]

I have heard good reports of the Neilson Sonic bullets from very credible sources. I have concerns that the few but relatively large petals will carry large amounts of energy into the tissues and increase the risk of rumen perforations. The same can be said about the other fragmenting designs such as the Virtus Merlin and Eagle. And in our limited experience with the Virtus this concern is real but they do work exceptionally well, albeit with greater meat damage than the mainly non-fragmenting designs like the Barnes. What is clear is that there are no such things as the perfect bullet for all occasions and if you want something for use at long range then meat damage in close might be an issue. This was the same for lead bullets incidentally.
With regard to copper toxicity there are two main points. The first is that copper is a trace element that is needed for the mammalian body to function optimally. In high doses it can be toxic but at low levels it is beneficial. The second is that copper breaks into a few large fragments rather than hundreds of tiny to microscopic fragments which massively increases the surface area and therefore bioavailability.

The shards I have recovered from the yewtree are around 5mm x 3mm I’ll post some pics when I get home from work as I always keep any bullet or fragment found more for mere shelf ornaments than anything.Reading up on toxicity I’d rather eat copper than the others but said that folk have been eating lead shot stuff for years and they have survived so far.

 

[NickJ]

Academic this morning..

 

[Brownie243]

I use the neilson sonic bullets in my 243. Probably shot over 100 fallow with them and a few foxes to start off with. They are OK. I have recovered quite a lot of petals from the underside of the skin on the exit side. The 3 petals and wedge exit in a 3" circle on the way out. Bullet placement on headshot fallow has to be good, you have not got the fragmentation of the tip of a lead Bullet to make up for misplacement. Deer seem to run a little further than with my 90 grain nosler bullets.
Kind regards David

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

Whats a biometal bullet?

 

[Acm]

It’s exactly this that has lead to me using the 93grn evo green (compressed tin) in 6.5 for head shooting and fox culling, and going back to the hornady cx monolithics for deer stalking. Not uncommon to have a bullet with over 100% weight retention where it has picked up a bit of meat on its way through.
I don’t like the idea of a large copper fragment ending up in the mincer and ending up on mince. Especially as the minced venison is often consumed by the kids.

 

[Acm]

Whats a biometal bullet?

Bi metal, made from two metals

 

[Heym SR20]

I am not convinced that the fragmenting bullets such as Geco Zero are the way to go. Yes they replace lead with less harmful Zinc, but you are still leaving a lot of fragments in the carcass / meat.

I think the Monolithic type bullets where the bullet expands into a spinning flower type shape, but stays together and retains 99% of its weight is the way to go. Most have a hollow point, often covered with either a plastic or brass / bronze / copper tip that helps initiate expansion.

Plenty of good options now available : Barnes TTSX, Sako Blade, Fox, Peregrine, yew Tree, Virtus Precision etc.

I have been using Fox and Peregrines for a while and friends using others. They all seem to work well and not make a mess of the carcass. I have yet to find any fragments left behind in the carcass.

But If they do leave a fragment it is easily large enough to be seen by the naked eye and before processing.

With the fragmenting designs, the fragments are often too small to be visible by naked eye, and thus can easily eaten in say a burger.

 

[User00040]

Worried about metal fragments in venison?

Don't use bullets on the deer or don't eat it.

Worried about a Russian/North Korean/Chinese Nuclear Missle?

Don't watch the news.

Worried about being hit by a car/lightning/meteor?

Don't leave the house.

I don't worry about any of the above...

 

[Leec6.5]

Worried about metal fragments in venison?

Don't use bullets on the deer or don't eat it.

Worried about a Russian/North Korean/Chinese Nuclear Missle?

Don't watch the news.

Worried about being hit by a car/lightning/meteor?

Don't leave the house.

I don't worry about any of the above...

Once again epic words of wisdom from our resident expert in all things deer related

 

[JockStalk]

Not in anyway related to the above but…

 

[Loler UK]

Myself and my field trial team have taken 1000s of deer with the NsonicH.
The 3petals are large and often don't exit a larger beast. They are easy to find and cut out.
Smaller Lead free fragments are not dense enough to continue to penetrate & traumatise tissue, the NSH design allows the significant mass of the 3petals to continue.
For chest shooting the larger species the vast majority of my team preferred the sonic lov ammo I produce with the NSH bullets.
The BC is not great, not a problem in terms of elevation with LRF but the wind can bite you in the A** if you are used to holding for a LRAB.
The other thing to consider is when head shooting the petals can injure adjacent deer if shooting bunched up herds.
I chest shot over 150 deer before a petal punctured the rumen but then had 3within the space of a month, I'd say no worse than non bonded lead.
If you clip a twig hit grass/ snow these bullets will detonate! This is the best thing about the design when you slip a bullet between the ribs of a deer. They always expanded, even at sub sonic velocities!
These are my go to lead free bullet for chest shooting. I will soon be fully launching factory cip tested ammo using both NSH and the yew tree bullets (my go to for park work)
Hope the info helps your decision.