New Forest Negligent Discharge

Only point your rifle at what you intend to shoot!
Well, your gun has to pointing somewhere and it's not possible to keep it pointing at something you intend to shoot. Perhaps it is better to say never point it at anything you don't want to kill, destroy or injure.

Muzzle awareness is important. I have had several times seen clients start to glass something, then turn and the muzzle is pointing at my head. This happens more since the use of moderators.

Sometimes it's easy to think everyone has experience and common sense. I remember someone thinking there was nothing wrong with having a loaded rifle in the vehicle as long as the safety catch was on. It's a never never for me
 
We are all capable of mistakes in the heat of the moment. BUT too have a loaded rifle in the back of a vehicle THAT scares the crap out of me.that gun should only be cocked when ready.
Its not just that the rifle hadn't been cleared it also demonstrates a casual attitude towards muzzle awareness
 
A lot of tales on hear about NDs

Those looking from the outside in ....................

Sometimes our tales and stories do our community no favours at all

Brain in gear before gob opens and fingers hit keyboards????????
We all know the score

But have you heard the rumours about this ................................

Not a poke at anyone . But I hope you understand what I mean

Kjf
There’s another way of looking at it though.
Many of the accounts are from 30 40 years or more of shooting. I can add a few more, but I won’t.
However look at it this way, if one person reading this thinks twice about safety. Then it could literally save a life. I would rather be honest and save potentially save a life or limb.
Let’s face it there are far more accidents with items in common use than firearms. Mostly through complacency and mainly avoidable, namely the car (amongst others).
I attended a single vehicle RTC last night.
Fasting, diabetes and driving are not a good mix. Thankfully a fence and the car were the only victims.
 
There’s another way of looking at it though.
Many of the accounts are from 30 40 years or more of shooting. I can add a few more, but I won’t.
However look at it this way, if one person reading this thinks twice about safety. Then it could literally save a life. I would rather be honest and save potentially save a life or limb.
Let’s face it there are far more accidents with items in common use than firearms. Mostly through complacency and mainly avoidable, namely the car (amongst others).
I attended a single vehicle RTC last night.
Fasting, diabetes and driving are not a good mix. Thankfully a fence and the car were the only victims.
S73
“Many of the accounts are from 30 40 years or more of shooting. I can add a few more, but I won’t.
However look at it this way, if one person reading this thinks twice about safety. Then it could literally save a life. I would rather be honest and save potentially save a life or limb.”
Agree entirely and precisely why I went to the lengths of giving only some my own experiences. If only one person reads this and improves their firearms handling then it will have been a good result. Also agree re the “far more accidents” point, however the serious injury or death outcome in firearms related NDs is exponentially greater than any other activity-related accident hence the reason for utmost caution. Personally I increasingly favour the european approach where formal training is mandatory before granting gun ownership.
As an aside there was a very gruesome photograph of what was an elbow circulating over here a while back which had a very close encounter with a large calibre rifle, best bit of shock training ever!
🦊🦊
 
DMQ Level One requires a safety test to be passed. I think I am right in that if you fail this part of the test you fail the whole course. Besides whether you have Level One or not makes no difference in the light of ANY ND, in my book.
One client had passed, but this was the client with the faulty Blaser, the other client, I have no idea if he has passed Level One or not.
 
There’s another way of looking at it though.
Many of the accounts are from 30 40 years or more of shooting. I can add a few more, but I won’t.
However look at it this way, if one person reading this thinks twice about safety. Then it could literally save a life. I would rather be honest and save potentially save a life or limb.
Let’s face it there are far more accidents with items in common use than firearms. Mostly through complacency and mainly avoidable, namely the car (amongst others).
I attended a single vehicle RTC last night.
Fasting, diabetes and driving are not a good mix. Thankfully a fence and the car were the only victims.
Here here. Besides these are not tales, mines a fact. Mistakes are made everyday in life, that's what humans do. But you cannot be too safe around firearms.
 
DMQ Level One requires a safety test to be passed. I think I am right in that if you fail this part of the test you fail the whole course. Besides whether you have Level One or not makes no difference in the light of ANY ND, in my book.
One client had passed, but this was the client with the faulty Blaser, the other client, I have no idea if he has passed Level One or not.
Indeed Malcom I fully agree and you’ve answered the whole mandatory training issue right there , it makes ZERO difference accidents happen as you say , training , be that Dsc or otherwise will have no effect on human error
 
  • Like
Reactions: TH4
Indeed Malcom I fully agree and you’ve answered the whole mandatory training issue right there , it makes ZERO difference accidents happen as you say , training , be that Dsc or otherwise will have no effect on human error
No effect on human error maybe. But knowledge and training can and does have a huge positive effect on the safe practice routines you adopt...even though it cannot guarantee that you will always achieve them..."muzzle awareness" is well worth being aware of before an ND.

@dodgyknees ' "empty chamber" is another example that I have adopted having been made aware of it.

Makes no difference whether it comes from a DSC1 or an angry guide giving you a rollicking. Much better to have knowledge than be in ignorance, and only become aware of the notion of "muzzle awareness" after causing a preventable disaster.

Alan
 
Concerning the merits or otherwise of publicising sport shooting incidents. I recall when I used to scuba dive and sky dive that periodical reports were issued by those sports' major organisations that provided statistical information and analysis of all the injuries and fatalities for the period concerned. This was regarded -rightly I think- as an important part of developing a safety culture in sports involving inherent imminent risk.
Shooting is of course different, as there is no mandatory training overseen by the major organisations, no club structure for off-range shooters that would support training and reporting, and a far more hostile media environment that could be predicted to respond to the release of information of this kind in a manner detrimental to our sport.
No less importantly, the mistakes scuba divers and sky divers make mostly harm only themselves -though mid-air collisions, poor rescue drills and botched boat-handling, etc. add to the tally. Where shooting is concerned, it seems very probable that the majority of the casualties -however small that number my be- are innocent third parties, and that only a minority are accidentally self-inflicted.
For what it's worth, I have been shooting for 40 years and in that time have witnessed the sum total of 2 minor woundings (requiring no more than a small dressing) and 4 negligent discharges (one caused a wound but the others caused no damage to persons or property). By contrast, in 20 years of scuba diving I was present at 3 fatalities and more emergency evacuations than I can easily recall. Thank heavens shooting sports don't put as many people in hospital or in the morgue each Bank Holiday as scuba diving does! (I've been out of sky diving for too long to know how that is faring).
There is, of course, no room for complacency, and how safe we are is all down to what we do each day, not how uneventful our shooting lives have been so far.
 
I'd actually completely disagree with some of the above comment , don't use grid ref and use w3w instead.
Goes against wot most +F trainers would tell u.

If u have to turn an app on to get w3w why not just use an app for grid ref, mountain rescue services will just convert to it anyway.
Far more risk of misspelling sword, and even the time it takes to spell every word phonetically compared to 6 simple numbers.
Esp when getting the grid ref off an app, little room for operator error even if they can't read a map.

Plus that grid ref app will likely have altitude or a compass, not essential for stalking but mibbee handy for working out wind direction on new ground

My point is have a way to communicate your location to those you might call for help - I’m sure those in mountainous areas with mountain rescue could use Grids - what three words works - and is used, (admittedly it also depends on local policy and even what shift are on - ambo / police on what method they prefer W3W being one of them) it’s fairly idiot proof - anyone in your party can use it - and was used and asked for when an ambo was called out for me - as I was the unconscious one in a rural location. They tend to really clarify your location. Equally don’t do any of the above, this is just from my experience.
 
Having been on the wrong end of a ND at the age of 14, and having the next several years of my (unbelievably lucky to still have) life seriously impacted, and the complete rest of my life changed to a certain degree, muzzle awareness is VERY high on my agenda.
I have had safety drilled into me, and believe I am safe, but it doesn’t hurt to be to take that extra step.

never, never, let your gun, pointed be at anyone,
unloaded though may it be, it matters not the least to me.
 
I’ve not read the whole thread.

To my mind there’s a clear relationship between accidents like this, and the European habit of carrying a loaded rifle when stalking and relying on the safety, as loading a rifle when presented with a shot is regarded as too slow and/or too noisy. If you make a mistake and forget to check the rifle is clear before stowing it, the likelihood of there being a chambered round is massively reduced if you aren’t in the habit of loading one when you don’t need it.

There are YouTube videos of European hunters getting out of the car, removing the rifle from it’s case, chambering a round and slinging it over their shoulder and walking off. That’s a massive no-no in this part of the world. Here, if you accidentally shoot someone in circumstances like this, it means you’ve broken the rules of the Firearms Code, which you promised you wouldn’t do when you signed the firearms licence forms. So if you do you’re in deep shite.
From the account it seems that the client did not properly unload his rifle before putting it in the Landrover. And neither did the guide check that it was clear before it was put in the vehicle. This has got nothing to do with our "European habits", it sounds like a violation of every rule in the book, or common sense.

As to what then happened, well that will perhaps be the subject of an enquiry, by the Police, and the insurers. Just to observe that well maintained rifles generally don't go bang unless the safety catch has been released, and the trigger pulled. Even then they don't usually shoot people unless the muzzle is pointed at them.

The "European Habit" as you call it, is the way that I was taught. That once we enter our hunting area we load the rifle and apply the safety. Then always assume that our, and others' rifles, are loaded and ready to fire and behave accordingly. Unloading when necessary e.g. to traverse obstacles, climb into a high set etc. and before returning to our vehicle, not waiting until we get back to it.

This is what we are taught at DSC1, for lowland stalking. For example, read the DSC1 syllabus on rifle safety. I dug out an old copy, 2012, but AFAIK this is still what we are taught, and examined on. See question 2.

For Scottish hill stalking, where the rifle is typically carried in a slip until the final approach, the questions start at 20, and may be more in accordance with how things are done in NZ.


See also Safety | Best Practice Guidance which is more comprehensive. Nevertheless the practice of stalking (i.e. moving around) whilst carrying the rifle in "stage 4", loaded and safety applied, is normal.

Only disengage the safety catch when just about to take the shot. (Change Stage from 4 to 5*).
• Apply the safety catch as soon as the opportunity for a shot passes.
• If stalking with a rifle with a chambered round (Stage 4*), keep the safety catch applied, and the rifle slung securely over one shoulder.
• If actively stalking with a rifle in Stage 4, ensure it is kept pointing at the ground or into the sky at all times.
• If shooting from a vehicle, a round should only be chambered (Stage 4 or 5*) just before a shot is being taken when the muzzle is located outside the vehicle.


I had been club shooting for at least five years before I took my first deer, so safety, from a target shooting perspective, had been drummed into me, the rifle and magazine only ever loaded when at the firing point when the RCO commanded, then unloaded, bolt out, and checked clear firstly by me, then by the RCO, before allowed to leave the firing point. Finger outside trigger guard at all times, except when just about to take the shot. That drill still serves me well when going for guided stalks, the difference being that the firing point is now the hunting ground, and I may roam upon it with the rifle loaded.

As for fully checking clear, on a target range in good light this can be done visually. Nevertheless it I always, as a final check, use my little finger to probe the chamber to make quite sure that there is not a round still inside it. It only needs say a fault with the extractor, or a short stroke of the bolt, for the rifle to seem to be unloaded, magazine out or floorplate released, bolt then re-inserted, for the rifle to still be ready to fire. This (finger test) is IMO the only way to properly check clear, I do it every time.

I also count my rounds in, and out again. It's not difficult, particularly if you keep them in a bullet wallet. If you have used one or two shots, then you should have one or two empty places in the wallet (or empty brass). When using a lever action, when removing the bolt is not possible, I rack out the magazine into my hat. There should be six rounds in there (minus any fired).

There are too many subtly different types of bolt, and other action, rifles, for even the most experienced to be familiar with every type, or swap between them with complete confidence. Integral magazine with floorplate, drop magazine, controlled vs push feed, flag safety, lever safety, safety inside the triggerguard :eek: two positions or three, does the bolt lock closed on safe meaning you can only load with the safety off, most fire with the safety in the forward position but some others are forward for safe, rear to fire (I really don't like these). Does the safety block the firing pin, or does it simply block the trigger, leaving the pin held only by the sear. Has the trigger been fiddled with to the detriment of sear engagement, or replaced altogether. Has the rifle been thoroughly bump tested after such an adjustment. Even if it was originally, has this been verified recently. Or is it a decocker type of safety, very safe when decocked but no different when cocked, which may take considerable force and be clicky. Yes sometimes you can overcome the click by pulling the trigger whilst cocking then release to hold the pin in the cocked position. Hardly good practise. Has it a set trigger, if so do you know how to unset it safely if you don't take the shot. Do you make use of the cocking piece projection to ascertain whether the firing pin is cocked or not (assuming it has one). And so on.

If you chose to carry in stage 3 (magazine loaded but chamber empty), how good are you at unloading the chamber then pushing the round back into the magazine then closing the bolt whilst keeping the round pushed back into the mag. if you don't take the shot ? Assuming an integral mag./floorplate arrangement. If that is even possible with many types of drop magazine. Do you instead take the mag. out put the cartridge back into it, close the bolt, maybe even dry-fire it to decock, then put the magazine back in again ? Lots of ways to get some of that wrong if e.g. tired, low light, cold fingers, unfamiliar rifle etc.
 
I must say Sikamalc's continued experience with NDs and R8s does concern me

I've owned one for 5 years - Put loads of rounds down range, and stalked with it it many times - (200 rounds went down range today with it)

I have never yet experienced an ND with it other than one caused by me by cocking it whilst touching the trigger (won't do that again!)

I've had a few NDs in my time

All when rapidly cycling a Mauser 98 in a simulated charging lion training situation

One occurred because I did not cup the bolt in the palm of my hand but used finger and thumb - my pinkie touched the trigger resulting in an instant 'sad on' trying to guess where the round went

the other as a result of finger on trigger when bring the rifle to bear

Both scenarios we address countless times on our DG course - pity I don't pay more attention when smacking my gums !!

PS - I NEVER use (let alone rely upon) a safety

Rifle always carried with eased springs on an empty chamber
 
Back
Top