No foxes shot and record season

[mudman]

I know we have a lot of dedicated foxers on here, and some folk are out almost every night, but is it really necessary!?!?

But I have just had a record season on my little DIY shoot. Broke the fabled 50% return on pheasants for the first time.

And didn’t shoot a single fox. Had a couple of harvest time lamping sessions, saw a lamp shy fox both occasions (briefly) and a had a few fruitless first light and evening high seat sessions. Flushed foxes three times on shoot days, so they were there.

Now would we have shot more pheasants if we had hammered the foxes, probably. Did it matter, no. To me it proved that on arable ground with small woodlands and released pheasants that intense fox control is by no means essential. A good pen, equally good electric fence and some highseat sentry duties when they start leaving the pen are what I have found really matters. Once they are going to roost it is only the real ‘problem’ fox, one that gets a taste for hunting them as they drop off roost, that causes any issues.

Now if you are a wild bird shoot, or release any numbers of partridge, fox control is essential. But for a put and take pheasant shoot I do have doubts.

Now you may say, what about the ground nesting birds? And I can only agree, foxes will cause mayhem among them. But we don’t have any, dry arable land, the farming did for them approx twenty years ago, late set potatoes, the contractors machinery mashed up any number of lapwing nests in May reworking brown ground for planting seed spuds, never to return.

 

[Sika98k]

Congratulations ! 50% is fantastic. I wish I could achieve that, 43% has been the best. Sadly returns have declined in the last few years. Too much human footfall.

 

[Smellydog]

How many ball of feathers did you come across on your shoot?

 

[Liveonce]

Well done for the 50% and for not shooting the foxes, night vision has made it so much easier to shoot foxes for sport rather than need. Nature finds its own balance does it not?

 

[countrryboy]

I think mudman is spot on when talking about reared birds.
That 1st 4 nights in the pen ( assuming not wing clipped) and 1st light round the wire when they 1st start leaving.
After that the losses to foxes will be fairly minimal.

Ive heard stories of proper old fashioned keepers that would prefer to have a small number of big strong dominat foxes ( assuming not causing any issues) on theyre ground as it will keep other foxes off there ground.
A bit like the stand buck principle for deer in foxes.
As everyone knows nature hates a vaccum.

On many shoots the poult losses most years to foxes will be relatively small, on many shoots it will be losses to other protected species can be far worse.

Yes foxes can hammer ground nesting birds but i always think foxes are quite a random oportunist hunter.
As sleeping almost anywhere within there territory and just wandering about.
Compared to say badgers, u have large numbers all living in the same sett all travelling out every night along the hedge rows.
Ground nesting birds just dont stand a chance if unfortunatly decide to nest/roost anywhere near a badger sett.

I know a decent keeper who ran a small genuine wild bird shoot, ( no big commercial shoots for 20 or 30 miles) only 1 in region.
Some real nice habitat for a small shoot
Told his boss was a waste of time him spending so much time larson trapping and killing foxes when place was absolutely polluted with badgers.

Sad to say but the state much off the countryside is in nowadsys foxes are the least of most birds problems now, between record high numbers off corvids, badgers and BoP, throw in domestic and feral cats and even Pune Martin spreading far further than ud ever think.
And yet habitat loss and climate change are the problem.

 

[Len the dog]

Are your neighbours actively pursuing the foxes?

 

[Apthorpe]

Is fox control necessary? Absolutely necessary in lots of cases, but not all.

I also run a small shoot, and we've taken varying approaches over 30 years. Geography and neighbours have a lot to do with this. Where we are (not the location of my avatar), which is not a flattish arable area of large fields, without fox control, the numbers of foxes are very high. And the effects aren't limited to predation. Birds will not settle into small coverts where there are high numbers of foxes continually disturbing them, and they have tended to disperse and disappear. Breeding success is also virtually zero without heavy fox control. We do a moderate amount of fox control, but in periods where we have done it more intensively, it is very striking how much it benefitted other wildlife (as did the badger culls!), which was driven to virtual or actual local extinction when foxes were left. It is also notable that without control, the numbers of foxes reached very high levels with a single foxer recording over 150 shot within the parish boundaries, and we'd get about 15 shot per 100 acres.

That said, I can totally understand how on other flatter arable areas with large fields and relatively isolated woods, that foxes would neither be present in numbers nor have much impact.

The problem is the tendency of people to generalise and extend particular cases nationally. It is important for everyone to have the freedom to manage individual circumstances as appropriate.

 

[Ratcatcher]

Well done for the 50% and for not shooting the foxes, night vision has made it so much easier to shoot foxes for sport rather than need. Nature finds its own balance does it not?

No unfortunately not! This is exactly Mr packhams correctly reasoned argument, then he and his supporters go on to set up dozens of feeding stations all over the country to actively keep alive the apex avian and ground predators? The problem is too many predators and too little prey, the predators are able to move to new food rich areas in times of need, the prey cannot!

 

[Apthorpe]

Well done for the 50% and for not shooting the foxes, night vision has made it so much easier to shoot foxes for sport rather than need. Nature finds its own balance does it not?

It does when you're talking about nature starting from a position of balance, but it doesn't when you're talking about unnatural situations.

In the UK, and other populated places, the fact is that many species are vulnerable or susceptible to imbalances, while some species of opportunists (pigeons, foxes, rats, ivy, brambles are all notable examples) are very successful and give the illusion of nature finding a balance even while they are unbalancing it further. These species, including foxes, reach unnaturally high levels through their association with human activities and then they suppress the other species because they are applying too much predation or disturbance.

 

[Overlay]

Do you run any stealth cameras, might be worth installing 1 or 2 of those to enable some degree of monitoring and adjust accordingly, nice result on your numbers

 

[jall55]

Im a big advocate of shooting every fox i see
If my shoot as yours above had no ground nesting birds i would be devastated - please don't forget they don't only nest in fields but in the spinneys and copse - You may think they will never return but given the chance i am sure they would

Would you give us more meat on the bone Mudman please ? - Number of birds released - proximity to other shoots ? Have you hares ?

The one thing i have noticed since i have had thermal and i am out a lot is just how many pheasants jug on the ground and are easy prey for foxes - i must admit though shooting to protect the pheasants is only half my motivation
@mudman

 

[Heym SR20]

Little shoot that I regularly participate in the Borders. Walked up mixed arable and marshland. Farmer does grow quite a few acres of mixed green manure crops full of clovers, vetches etc. We have several good covies of wild grey partridges, plenty of songbirds and lapwings. We put out 100 odd ex layers and do nothing more than some feed.

We don’t do any vermin control. We see the odd big dominant fox and we don’t see lots of kill sites from fox kills.

We 4 or 5 days walked up shooting with 6 to 8 guns. Bag is typically 25 birds, with half pheasant and the rest wildfowl, woodcock and the odd partridge. It could be better if there was straighter shooting, but most get a good day. And plenty of exercise especially for the dogs.

With the partridges, what has really made the difference are the open field green manure crops. They provide good cover over the winter and in particular spring time for the young chicks - they have successfully raised several good broods. And all without any involvement from any of us.

 

[matty tree]

I used to have release pens at a wood to the rear of a house I lived in on a small estate , frequently used to see a huge dog fox so I asked the keeper about shooting it for him, his reply was absolutely no way ! That big boy keeps all the young pretenders off his turf and if you shoot him you will get hundreds more coming in trying to take his territory causing chaos and killing everything. That big dog fox taking the odd pheasant was worth it for him keeping the order… the guy was in his 80’s and apart from being in the army keepering was all he had ever done so I took his opinion as worth while listening too.

 

[countrryboy]

I used to have release pens at a wood to the rear of a house I lived in on a small estate , frequently used to see a huge dog fox so I asked the keeper about shooting it for him, his reply was absolutely no way ! That big boy keeps all the young pretenders off his turf and if you shoot him you will get hundreds more coming in trying to take his territory causing chaos and killing everything. That big dog fox taking the odd pheasant was worth it for him keeping the order… the guy was in his 80’s and apart from being in the army keepering was all he had ever done so I took his opinion as worth while listening too.

Aye i have been told similar stories quite a few times.
And wot surprises me even more with that mentality is back in those days keepers were generally pretty ruthless when it came to vermin control.
Plus a lot of estates would still either be wild bird still have good numbers of wild birds.
Even to some extent hunting may help to weed out the weaker foxes.

Thinking back when i ran my wee shoot, i started off very keen but u just never seen or shot a lot of foxes.
Still went out just a bit less often, still 2 or 3 times a month plus 2 or 4 times a week at releasing time and lambing
Can be demoralising going out and just not seeing anything.
Some years only be shooting a handfull over 1000 acres, and 3 sides unkeepered

Not saying they werenae theyre just not in massive numbers
Pretty rare to see a fox on a shoot day.
And even when we had the hounds up be lucky to find 1 or 2 foxes, usually the large woods at either end of shoot.

I think it will all depend on ur exact location.
If u have 5 big badger setts on ur ground is shooting a few foxes going to make any difference

Really ALL predators with high or very healthy populations should be allowed to be controlled to some extent even if under some sort of a licensing system, even if semi local/regional.

 

[bumpy22]

I remove any fox I see on my shoot. We are noticing the percentages are rising at the end of the season.
We run trap lines in both woods.
But I can confidently say my biggest loss of birds is to buzzards.

 

[wanderer]

I remove any fox I see on my shoot. We are noticing the percentages are rising at the end of the season.
We run trap lines in both woods.
But I can confidently say my biggest loss of birds is to buzzards.

I can honestly say i haven't seen a buzzard take a pheasant and i am sat out quite a lot . Thats just my experience .
We have quite a few buzzards and i always keep an eye out to see what they are up to whilst waiting for deer to appear.
Bumpy22 are you seeing them take birds and if so what age/condition and type of game bird?

 

[gr cz527]

loads of factors to consider. you may have a narrow peice of ground and foxes pass through. you may have large commercials either side who you inherit birds from and who have full time keepers who keep on top of vermin. 50% is a great return and irrelevant of the factors should be celebrated. % may not always be the be all of days out but i always see them as a bonus to doing a job well more so on a diy shoot.

 

[Bo Diddley]

I can honestly say i haven't seen a buzzard take a pheasant and i am sat out quite a lot . Thats just my experience .
We have quite a few buzzards and i always keep an eye out to see what they are up to whilst waiting for deer to appear.
Bumpy22 are you seeing them take birds and if so what age/condition and type of game bird?

Buzzards hammer the young poults if given a chance, and follow the growing birds as they wander away from the pens, I'm sure they follow in the hope of getting a chance with a weaker bird, I've even watched them on the ground amongst a group of pheasants.
I've never seen an adult buzzard take a healthy adult pheasant, only sickly or wounded birds.

 

[old keeper]

I can honestly say i haven't seen a buzzard take a pheasant and i am sat out quite a lot . Thats just my experience .
We have quite a few buzzards and i always keep an eye out to see what they are up to whilst waiting for deer to appear.
Bumpy22 are you seeing them take birds and if so what age/condition and type of game bird?

On my last shoot, buzzards were a far greater problem than foxes. They would perch on the fence poles of the release pens and terrify the poults. The pen was in thick woodland and they would plummet down into the pen from a great height. It's amazing to watch but a real nightmare.
As far as what age birds they would take, my answer would be from six weeks to adult. I've seen buzzards drop on adult pheasants many times. At one time when birds were still in the pen I reckoned they were taking at least six to eight birds a day, and due to the location, there was nothing I could do about it. They were, without a doubt the worst problem I had throughout my keepering life.

 

[bumpy22]

I can honestly say i haven't seen a buzzard take a pheasant and i am sat out quite a lot . Thats just my experience .
We have quite a few buzzards and i always keep an eye out to see what they are up to whilst waiting for deer to appear.
Bumpy22 are you seeing them take birds and if so what age/condition and type of game bird?

We lose them on a daily basis when poults are put in release pens
Bloody things fly up when we enter pens and wait in trees till we leave.