Non toxic

[Rutland lad]

I am well aware that this post is like throwing a live grenade in then running away sharpish.
Please bear with me.
Lots of anti non lead ammunition stories appear on these pages and as a ‘confirmed nontoxic’ ammo user, I do feel that some people just won’t give up lead. I don’t blame you - I have, primarily because my butcher doesn’t want the lead in his product and I’m lucky enough to have an outlet for my venison so I will deliver what he wants. Secondly because one of my permissions specifies the use of non lead.

I stalk with a close friend and very experienced stalker. He was been shooting lead for 50+ years. He’s recently been introduced to non toxic ammo and has been shooting Fox Classic in 308 and Sako Blade in 6.5 CM.

The following is a photo of a fallow heart shot at 140 yds with a 6.5 CM Sako Blade. As you can see clearly, the heart has been destroyed. The beast still managed to run about 40 yds before expiring. Is that 40 yard run as a result of being shot with non lead ammo ? Would a lead bullet have made any difference whatsoever to the injury ? I say it wouldn’t.

So - for those who say ‘it didn’t drop on the spot because it wasn’t lead’ can you explain to me in layman’s terms why the different metal in those bullets would make that heart shot any better or worse. I’m afraid I don’t see it - lead or copper/tin/whatever alloy used would make no difference to the injury - the animal ran because of remaining blood pressure and adrenaline. Not because it was shot with non lead.

I’m open to discussing the use of lead or non lead but can we try and keep it factual.

If the animal ran further than expected was there the slightest chance that your shot wasn’t quite correctly placed ? I’ve certainly fluffed up a few shots over the years, and I couldn’t blame it on anything other than me rushing, or just being plain incompetent on that day.
Stalkers are being influenced to not try non lead because of stories on forums that frankly just don’t add up.
We shouldn’t believe everything we read. Should we ?

Thanks for bearing with me.

 

[RCS Deer Management]

A lead projectile wouldn’t have killed that deer any quicker. However, I’m not sure that that image proves much either. Non toxic bullets CAN work very well, however they also have limitations and these limitations aren’t the same as lead projectiles. This isn’t an issue if you understand the differences. Classic monolithic bullets tend to need 2200fps to open reliably, unlike lead which tends to be 1600-1800fps. If you are shooting a .270 at sub 300m you are going to think that monolithics are great, but in some combinations (6.5x55, .308 ect) with slow factory loads all the sudden you can get dangerously close to the non expansion velocities as close as 180-200m. Pair this with a low resistance target like a munty, roe, small hind ect you can soon run into problems. As much as non toxic bullets can be great at times, it’s important to understand why and how others have run into problems with them in order to not have issues yourself.

 

[Rutland lad]

A lead projectile wouldn’t have killed that deer any quicker. However, I’m not sure that that image proves much either. Non toxic bullets CAN work very well, however they also have limitations and these limitations aren’t the same as lead projectiles. This isn’t an issue if you understand the differences. Classic monolithic bullets tend to need 2200fps to open reliably, unlike lead which tends to be 1600-1800fps. If you are shooting a .270 at sub 300m you are going to think that monolithics are great, but in some combinations (6.5x55, .308 ect) with slow factory loads all the sudden you can get dangerously close to the non expansion velocities as close as 180-200m. Pair this with a low resistance target like a munty, roe, small hind ect you can soon run into problems. As much as non toxic bullets can be great at times, it’s important to understand why and how others have run into problems with them in order to not have issues yourself.

Thank you for that. It may explain why I’ve not had an issue myself as I’m reloading all my nontoxic rather than buying factory so speeds are perhaps a little higher.
As one who’s not had an issue it’s difficult for me to visualise those that have due to circumstances I’ve not encountered.
However that doesn’t change my opinion of a ‘lack of honesty’ sometimes about the perceived accuracy of shots that don’t result in a downed deer. Lead or non lead, the shot has to land in the correct place in order for it to do its intended task.
I’m not having a go at others - I just find it difficult to reconcile the ‘hearsay’ stories with the reality of the circumstances on occasion. As we weren’t actually there, we’re never going to know what actually happened are we.

 

[Hook'N'Bullet]

No, I've heart shot sika with .308 SSTs and they run. 2 that spring to mind was one at 80 meters on the hill, heart shot and broke shoulder but ran in circles for about 5 seconds. The second was a pricket at 219 meters, broke shoulder, hit heart and he still ran 60 meters or so.

That being said, I've double lunged and missed the heart on a few deer and they seem to expire much quicker.

 

[JockStalk]

Land in the right place, with sufficient velocity for the bullet design to initiate suitable expansion in order to create an effective wound channel.
There are lead bullets that need more speed and monolithic that expand well with less speed.
Know your limits?

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Thank you for that. It may explain why I’ve not had an issue myself as I’m reloading all my nontoxic rather than buying factory so speeds are perhaps a little higher.
As one who’s not had an issue it’s difficult for me to visualise those that have due to circumstances I’ve not encountered.
However that doesn’t change my opinion of a ‘lack of honesty’ sometimes about the perceived accuracy of shots that don’t result in a downed deer. Lead or non lead, the shot has to land in the correct place in order for it to do its intended task.

I have a lot of clients so see dozens of different rifle/calibre/ammunition combinations a year, most get on really well with non toxic. However you just need to realise that you are always going to be closer to the velocity cut off than you are with traditional cup and core bullets. In most set ups you are going to be fine, but imagine you are using a slightly slower load than most in a non ‘hot’ chambering with a rifle that has a slow barrel. You are all of the sudden having runners and slow kills where you were having good performance with lead beforehand due to having an extra 400fps before the expansion slows down. There are several ways to ensure this doesn’t happen to you. Chrono your loads and use a ballistic calculator to ensure you will be above 2200fps impact velocity at any hunting ranges. Use modern monolithics that hang onto performance as well as possible. Claims of amazing penetration arnt what you are after. you want high bc (so it clings to velocity), some monolithics have the bc. Ratings of a potato, normally followed up by claims that it doesn’t matter at stalking ranges by the manufacturer or the retailer. It does matter, even more so with monolithics than lead core bullets.

 

[.25-06]

Copper performance has improved since the first offerings.
Initially roe shot with barnes bullets would drop 60m away with a chest shot.
As above post #2 relates to bullet speed, and knowing how that affects expansion, similarly often shot placement was learnt to break bones on the way through to do additional damage as you wouldn't stop a copper bullet.

 

[Biathlonjimmy]

I have a lot of clients so see dozens of different rifle/calibre/ammunition combinations a year, most get on really well with non toxic. However you just need to realise that you are always going to be closer to the velocity cut off than you are with traditional cup and core bullets. In most set ups you are going to be fine, but imagine you are using a slightly slower load than most in a non ‘hot’ chambering with a rifle that has a slow barrel. You are all of the sudden having runners and slow kills where you were having good performance with lead beforehand due to having an extra 400fps before the expansion slows down. There are several ways to ensure this doesn’t happen to you. Chrono your loads and use a ballistic calculator to ensure you will be above 2200fps impact velocity at any hunting ranges. Use modern monolithics that hang onto performance as well as possible. Claims of amazing penetration arnt what you are after. you want high bc (so it clings to velocity), some monolithics have the bc. Ratings of a potato, normally followed up by claims that it doesn’t matter at stalking ranges by the manufacturer or the retailer. It does matter, even more so with monolithics than lead core bullets.

Indeed they have moved on, which is great for all involved. Yew Tree works well for me and, in theory, dip below 2200fps at 700yds which is past ideal range for me. I have shot plenty at different ranges and I have had better performance than with ELD-X and similar but better than ABLR.

 

[Stalker62]

Pedant alert...



It is not 'non-toxic' - it is non-lead.

All metals (in sufficient quantities) are 'toxic'.



FWIW (nothing).

I use lead and non-lead bullets and (in relation to quarry), I have not noticed any discernible difference in either POA, POI, (perhaps a couple of clicks), fatality, or meat damage.


Now.

If anybody else wants to 'spout off', I think I have finished with this...

 

[RCS Deer Management]

Indeed they have moved on, which is great for all involved. Yew Tree works well for me and, in theory, dip below 2200fps at 700yds which is past ideal range for me. I have shot plenty at different ranges and I have had better performance than with ELD-X and similar but better than ABLR.

That’s great, but unfortunately the poor performance loads are still available

 

[Rutland lad]

Pedant alert...

View attachment 387594

It is not 'non-toxic' - it is non-lead.

All metals (in sufficient quantities) are 'toxic'.



FWIW (nothing).

I use lead and non-lead bullets and (in relation to quarry), I have not noticed any discernible difference in either POA, POI, (perhaps a couple of clicks), fatality, or meat damage.


Now.

If anybody else wants to 'spout off', I think I have finished with this...


View attachment 387595

Pedant alert accepted.

 

[nun_hunter]

Thank you for that. It may explain why I’ve not had an issue myself as I’m reloading all my nontoxic rather than buying factory so speeds are perhaps a little higher.
As one who’s not had an issue it’s difficult for me to visualise those that have due to circumstances I’ve not encountered.
However that doesn’t change my opinion of a ‘lack of honesty’ sometimes about the perceived accuracy of shots that don’t result in a downed deer. Lead or non lead, the shot has to land in the correct place in order for it to do its intended task.
I’m not having a go at others - I just find it difficult to reconcile the ‘hearsay’ stories with the reality of the circumstances on occasion. As we weren’t actually there, we’re never going to know what actually happened are we.

The difference between lead and copper are that some people know what different lead bullets do but don't know there are different types of copper bullet other than an original Barnes.

Describing bullets as either lead or non lead makes no sense. Lead bullets are very different amongst themselves. You wouldn't shoot a non jacketed lead bullet designed for a pistol or gallery rifle at 1000m/s and expect it it to penetrate deeply into a large thick skinned animal.

You can pick different bullets to do different things for the same rifle or the same constructed bullet will perform differently from different rifles at different velocities.

 

[jthyttin]

So - for those who say ‘it didn’t drop on the spot because it wasn’t lead’ can you explain to me in layman’s terms why the different metal in those bullets would make that heart shot any better or worse. I’m afraid I don’t see it - lead or copper/tin/whatever alloy used would make no difference to the injury - the animal ran because of remaining blood pressure and adrenaline. Not because it was shot with non lead.

I'm not disputing your observations, just want to point out few things.

1. non-alert beast cannot summon adrenalin for the 1-2-3 seconds after the shot; on the remaining blood, either pressurized or not, you're right

2. shot through the heart is by no means the most effective to "stop the beast on it's tracks"; see the previous point regarding blood still in circulation

There seems to be 3 different wounding mechanisms with supersonic bullets. First the traditional way, where bullet loses some mass as small size shrapnel. Everybody is familiar with that. Second, either bonded or monolithic bullet that loses very little or none. That's also somewhat tried'n'true recipe, different thing is whether it suits you.

Third one is bullet that breaks into larger pieces, namely non-lead bullets that shed petals with moderate impact velocity. These seem to have unwanted consequencies, breaking rumen on otherwise clean shots etc. Also petal velocity (inside the carcass) is quite modest, and it may present same problems as shotgun shot i.e. go unnoticed until dinner table.

 

[Rutland lad]

I acknowledge all of the above relevant posts, and thank you to those that answered as fully as they did.

The thrust of my point was for more honesty around if the shot didn’t work as expected, why was that ?
The overwhelming retort is ‘it’s a copper bullet it doesn’t work well’ rather than ‘it wasn’t my best shot, perhaps the fact it was a copper bullet is not important’
I genuinely feel that when fellow stalkers ask for advice on this site about monometal (stalker1963 please note) the advice they get is skewed by others being less than truthful about poorly placed shots. I get it - I really do. None of us want to admit we get it wrong, but we do don’t we.
I’m just keen for more honesty about the whole package of shooter, rifle, calibre, range and ammo. Currently the default is to point the finger at the ammo, when there’s probably a learning point for all of us if the whole situation is honestly relayed, then perhaps (big perhaps) we could all learn from what took place, and avoid those mistakes.
That is all.

 

[Stalker62]

I’m just keen for more honesty about the whole package of shooter, rifle, calibre, range and ammo. Currently the default is to point the finger at the ammo...

Have long suspected that that may be the case.

Have shot on a couple of places where non-lead (monometal) are required, any 'issues' are invariable caused by my shite shooting.

 

[Eddie P]

I'm erring toward high shoulder / spine shots with lead free.
When executed properly you'll send a shockwave through the CSF into the brain, if you miss L/R it still hits spine.
If hits low (range misestimated) you've still got a double shoulder, or lower still boiler room.

 

[Heym SR20]

I am well aware that this post is like throwing a live grenade in then running away sharpish.
Please bear with me.
Lots of anti non lead ammunition stories appear on these pages and as a ‘confirmed nontoxic’ ammo user, I do feel that some people just won’t give up lead. I don’t blame you - I have, primarily because my butcher doesn’t want the lead in his product and I’m lucky enough to have an outlet for my venison so I will deliver what he wants. Secondly because one of my permissions specifies the use of non lead.

I stalk with a close friend and very experienced stalker. He was been shooting lead for 50+ years. He’s recently been introduced to non toxic ammo and has been shooting Fox Classic in 308 and Sako Blade in 6.5 CM.

The following is a photo of a fallow heart shot at 140 yds with a 6.5 CM Sako Blade. As you can see clearly, the heart has been destroyed. The beast still managed to run about 40 yds before expiring. Is that 40 yard run as a result of being shot with non lead ammo ? Would a lead bullet have made any difference whatsoever to the injury ? I say it wouldn’t.

So - for those who say ‘it didn’t drop on the spot because it wasn’t lead’ can you explain to me in layman’s terms why the different metal in those bullets would make that heart shot any better or worse. I’m afraid I don’t see it - lead or copper/tin/whatever alloy used would make no difference to the injury - the animal ran because of remaining blood pressure and adrenaline. Not because it was shot with non lead.

I’m open to discussing the use of lead or non lead but can we try and keep it factual.

If the animal ran further than expected was there the slightest chance that your shot wasn’t quite correctly placed ? I’ve certainly fluffed up a few shots over the years, and I couldn’t blame it on anything other than me rushing, or just being plain incompetent on that day.
Stalkers are being influenced to not try non lead because of stories on forums that frankly just don’t add up.
We shouldn’t believe everything we read. Should we ?

Thanks for bearing with me.View attachment 387588

Have a look at - it answers your questions very clearly in terms of the different bullet types.

As many poachers in Africa have learnt to their cost, put an rifle propelled grenade through the guts of an elephant or a buffalo and it still has plenty of ability to charge and stamp you into little pieces.

Or in other words, poor shooting results in slow kills. To kill instantly you need to both take out the Central Nervous System and cause catastrophic blood loss to the brain and other major organs.

A poorly place shot, or one that doesn’t through to the vitals can knock an animal down unconscious only for it to get up and run off again.

Animals are well designed with their heart, and the junctions of the major arteries and the central nervous system are very well protected from penetrating injuries such as those inflicted by male deer on each other. You need a bullet that will consistently do this for you.

 

[co’den]

Classic monolithic bullets tend to need 2200fps to open reliably, unlike lead which tends to be 1600-1800fps. If you are shooting a .270 at sub 300m you are going to think that monolithics are great, but in some combinations (6.5x55, .308 ect) with slow factory loads all the sudden you can get dangerously close to the non expansion velocities as close as 180-200m.

That’s ultimately why I went for a .270 when I recently returned to stalking. I figured, if I Find myself having to use copper then, going by the numbers, a .270 would do the job well on the permissions I have.

 

[doric_prince]

That’s ultimately why I went for a .270 when I recently returned to stalking. I figured, if I Find myself having to use copper then, going by the numbers, a .270 would do the job well on the permissions I have.

Similar considerations when I move from .243 to 7mm rem mag for reds; dropping bullet weights and retaining velocity for expansion when in the future we will inevitably have to only use copper. That said .243 is being dusted off for the hinds in 4 weeks; got plenty of lead ammo I want to use up. Looking forward to the light recoil.

 

[Biathlonjimmy]

That’s great, but unfortunately the poor performance loads are still available

Very true. Out of interest, given you guide, do you engage with the client prior to the stalk to determine what projectile they are using and utilise that knowledge when you are stalking to limit risk of wounding?

I have had some great experiences of being guided over the years and save a question on chambering and a range test no one has ever asked me what I am sending down range. Arguably it is just as important as the chambering.

I, as a client, would think it an entirely reasonable question as part of the trip. When I take people out (in frequently and non-commercially) they use my rifle but it has never occurred to me to ask my experienced friends that accompany me what they are using.

I'd be interested in your thoughts.