Not legal to shoot deer without dsc 1 after April 2014 ?

[Tamus]

Well a greater portion of the idiots that cuase the motorways to grind to a halt, seem to emanate from this sort of training.

Sorry, you'll have to iron out the ambiguity for me. Which sort of training do you refer to?

The sort where you get lots of practical experience, take professional guidance and final training and then sit an independently administered test... Or DSC1?

I'm pretty sure DSC1 doesn't include a motorway driving component though, at least mine didn't.

 

[finnbear270]

Inverted humour on your using the analogy of drivers getting a possible pass cert from their own examiner, I thought this demonstrated the standard of some of our companions on todays motorways!

 

[Tamus]

Inverted humour on your using the analogy of drivers getting a possible pass cert from their own examiner, I thought this demonstrated the standard of some of our companions on todays motorways!

Oh! That's OK then... I thought you fell out of bed grumpy this morning and were having some sort of a "pop" at me...

Actually, the fact that DSC1 is classroom based lecturing with minimal practical element and the shooting test is theory beforehand (no actual one-to-one training) then slap you down in front of a target to see how you go, all testing supervised in house, isn't something I think is neccessarily bad.... If you take it for what it is, just an intro.

Mind you, for anyone thinking of doing this course from scratch I'd advise getting some gunsafety/handling and shooting coaching first, particularly if you've never picked up a gun before. And... unless you have a very good memory/recall and only need to be shown something once to remember it I'd get something like the BDS "Training manual for stalkers" a few weeks ahead of my course and read it through a few times.

 

[finnbear270]

I'm all in favour of good quality training, in whatever activity, just object to having this or that card/cert, superceded, or even ignored by someone elses scheme.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Roch who just joined the site had never fired a stalking rifle, or handled one with any resposibility. With a little bit of coaching and support he passed the shooting assessment where lots of far more experienced guys sometimes fluff it. He also had very good recall on the safety walk which to his cedit was through revision and self testing before hand.

I've had guys turn up on the a course who recieve all the info but have a 'I know it all' that is usually accompanied with 'I'm better than this' mindset. The training side of things can only educate people who want to learn. Some candidates just want Level 1 because they need it to get stalking. Othes want level 1 because they want to understand the deer and everything they can about what it means to be a deer stalker.

Remember this because some people just want the gun to shoot deer, they aren't that bothered about the wider ethos of being a 'deer stalker' and I bet most of us have met the likes.

 

[tikka 3006]

within reason it is something similar here. to hunt state owned forestries here in ireland you must have done what is called the hcap which is similar to the dsc1. hence this year has seen a drop in the level of deer due to the amount of poaching going on in areas. also here the social welfare got involved and now anybody who sells game to a registered game dealer has to fill out a form stating where the deer has been shot the time etc and you must also provide your pps number

 

[David T]

Sorry but I believe our house is in order and has been for many many years. We don't need jobs worths telling us what we can/can't do and earning a crust of us and our sport. Do we genuinely believe that we need to pass a test in order to be considered competent or that having a bit of paper is going to make us better at what we do. Surely that comes from time and experience, and that can't be bought.

 

[jmass]

Inderesting thread . They might be thinking about it in England as well as Scotland , but it will , no doubt be met with very mixed feelings ! I do have levels one and two DMQ and definatley benefitted from the process , but there will be some very experienced long time stalkers , who are very knowledgable,but have had no formal training , who will be offended by the suggestion to get Qualified . Even so , all to often we hear of someone not too far away who thinks that blasting away with his shotgun at any deer that comes closish , is fair game ! Would it actually stop that happening ? Alas , probably not . How to fix this problem ?????

 

[David T]

I do not believe the DSC 1 and 2 are there to get rid of the minority who think that kind of behavour is acceptable. How would it be enforced, they could still have a shotgun and only use it for pheasants, honest officer. Fixing that is not a staright forward issue. there are always the few who spoil it for the many.
Keepers will be offended at having to get a piece of paper that allows them to do the job they have been doing since year dot. Also experienced stalkers. So where do we draw the line ? People knew to our sport, how do we manage that and what does new mean ? Do we want to encourage the young, make our sport open and transparent so that people can see the passion and care we have for our sport, the animals, the way of life and the countryside. Or close ranks and make it hard to get into and the passed time of the wealthy and those in the know. I know how I got started...............

 

[jmass]

Hi David T , I think we are on the same wave-length . It's a tricky one , with the nanny state putting its oar in . We come across it most walks of life now , with extra rules and regulations on this that and the other . I guess we have to submit and get quallified on paper for everything .

 

[Canbull]

do not think it wont happen, here in ireland we do a hcap,<hunter competence programme> to shoot state forestry costs about 150 euro and is a must to get a permit for your wood ,.now there is a new one coming but not compulsory yet. a carcase handling/disease recognition etc to be a (trained hunter) at a cost of wait for it 340 euro. in my opinion hcap and dsc1 cover most of the syllabus ,it may be a good thing but im not a course junkey i,d much prefer to go shooting.

 

[Sharpie]

An element of compulsory licensing for some stalkers is being introduced in Scotland, by way of the "fit and competent" register for nominated controllers.

But I think this initially only applies to those shooting out of season, or at night under specific SNH authorisation.

I don't think it applies to stalking during the open season, so most stalkers and recreational clients shouldn't be affected. Professional stalkers and contractors etc. are going to be the ones most affected.

AFAIK nominated controllers have until 2014 to get themselves registered, maybe this date is what the OP was referring to ?

Its explained at Fit and competent register - Scottish Natural Heritage

Anyone wishing to control deer under authorisation should be registered as fit and competent.

The requirement to be registered as fit and competent also applies to anyone wishing to be nominated to control deer under section 26(2) of The Deer (Scotland) Act 1996, where they are to carry out deer control for an owner or occupier.

Furthermore the requirements to qualify as "fit and competent" are DSC2 level, not just DSC1.

To register you must first prove that you meet the necessary criteria set out by Scottish Natural Heritage.

You can do this by providing evidence of completing the Deer Stalking Certificate Level 2 within the last 5 years or by providing details of two referees who can provide evidence that you meet the required standards.

The .pdf at http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/A423176.pdf suggests that the registration will only be valid for five years from the date of DSC2, after that it is intended to move to some other qualification based on knowledge the Best Practice guidance and personal references, renewable five-yearly. Possibly introducing a Best Practice qualification relevant to the Scottish environment.

That said, I could speculate that in future some organisations might choose to use fit and competent status as a requirement for allowing unaccompanied stalking on their grounds, as some already do for DSC1 or 2. But that is just speculation.

Also once up and running it wouldn't be much of a change to make it compulsory for all unaccompanied stalkers, not just those operating under "authorisation".

I was fortunate to be able to attend last year's Best Practice course at Balmoral Castle, and found it very educational. It was a unique opportunity to meet many very experienced deer managers, and to learn how their work is changing under the new regime at SNH. I heard from one that already some pre-qualification questionnaires are asking questions along the lines of "which Best Practice courses have you attended"... I get the strong impression that SNH intend to build on Best Practice, and use it as their golden standard, rather than DMQ.

I'd recommend all stalkers to subscribe to the Scottish guide. I am also a convert to the benefits of DSC1, and intend to register for DSC2 once I have a bit more experience.

 

[dean]

Having just read through the majority of this thread again, I'm pretty sure I can see where the biggest problem lies, and potentially a solution!
Firstly, lets go back and see what DSC 1 is actually about.
DSC 1 is aimed primarily at 'ab initio' stalkers. It gives an excellent (albeit theoretical) start to a deer stalking career. There is a clear requirement for this course at this level, and most, if not all beginners that complete it, hold it in high regard - FACT!
Your 'business metric' (if you insist on one) is that complete novices are taught all they need to know to operate safely, within the law, and the basics of large game meat hygiene. I think we all agree that there is a definite 'need' for training at this level, and the improvment is fully 'measureable' in the form of an assesment at the end resulting in a pass or fail with a certificate issued to successful candidates.

So, it would therefore be fair to assume that this would be a suitable 'entry level' standard for us all to hold as a minimum? If so, then we should surely ALL hold it to give us credibility as a whole?

But then comes what I perceive as the main problem!

Why should existing experienced stalkers have to go back and do the basic course?!

Some are way above this level and would clearly gain no benefit or 'improvement' from attending such a course.
Some would learn something new, but are probably operating safely already and within the law.
Some might think they are doing everything right, but aren't, and don't know any different!

I'm sure there are a few more categories too, but these three should cover most of us!

So, should any of the above have to do the course?
Well, the simple answer is NO!!!
Nobody 'Has' to do the course, and probably never will.
What you might have to do though is the assessment!
You do not have to do the course to take the assessments!
It is much cheaper this way also.
So...
Here is a solution.
If you think you are good enough, why not just do the assessment?
What could be difficult about that?
It would be no different than all of us that have been driving for years re-sitting our driving test. We are all experienced drivers - what could possibly go wrong?
HMmmmmm!

My point is, that things change with time. Standards and requirements also change. You may well have been doing it for years, but are you doing it right and could you be doing it better? If you truly believe that you have stopped learning, then you should probably stop stalking!
If you truly believe that you are above the 'minimum' required standard, then prove it to yourself and others by passing the test!
Please feel free to discuss further!
MS

i did ma dsc 1 last year after many years of stalking .And beleave me a learnt more than a thought there was to learn . IE meat handling hygiene just to name a few so all i can say is a think it should be the law dsc1 or no deer shooting if caught with deer without dsc1 then god help them might stop all the poachers .What u have to remember is someone is going to eat that deer .Am now working towords ma dsc2 . The way things are going u will not get a lease without it so why delay