not sure if this is a wind up

[ashray]

this seems more like pigeon watch forum,and that was all b.lls

 

[Lupus]

Sorry Wolfie worked with FC in both England and Scotland on several deer management groups over many years, so not heresay and supposition. Some good and knowledgeable men on the ground, who I have the greatest respect for, and a lot of the others. I therfore think I am entitled to my opinion.

You know what they say about opinions, TFH.

I too have been involved with DMGs, and can honestly say that from that experience I couldn't form an honest opinion about the actual workings of any of the members, whether they be professional, recreational, government, NGO, or otherwise.

I've found some who have had little to say to be exceptional deer managers on the ground, while others with plenty of huff and puff couldn't even differentiate between juveniles and yearlings (just as one example). Funnily enough, the gentleman I refer to was also one to condemn the FC at every opportunity. He ended up the wrong side of the law too. Maybe a case of 'protesting too much'.

Anyway, I digress, long and short of it, don't believe the hype. And DMGs are not the best places to judge what actually happens on the ground.

Wolfie

 

[User00025]

You know what they say about opinions, TFH.

I too have been involved with DMGs, and can honestly say that from that experience I couldn't form an honest opinion about the actual workings of any of the members, whether they be professional, recreational, government, NGO, or otherwise.

I've found some who have had little to say to be exceptional deer managers on the ground, while others with plenty of huff and puff couldn't even differentiate between juveniles and yearlings (just as one example). Funnily enough, the gentleman I refer to was also one to condemn the FC at every opportunity. He ended up the wrong side of the law too. Maybe a case of 'protesting too much'.

Anyway, I digress, long and short of it, don't believe the hype. And DMGs are not the best places to judge what actually happens on the ground.

Wolfie

Hi Wolfie I don't think you are,and I hope you are not suggesting that I am working on the wrong side of the law with your"Too".
Opinions are like fine wine,some you like,some you don't, but when organising groups consisting of private forestry interests, FC interests, Deer Commission interests, private estates and Keeper's interests,etc over a number of years you do get some idea of everyone's personalities and foibles. This does tend one to form opinions rightly or wrongly, hence I formed mine. I was at the time probably only accounting for upwards of 130 animals a year personally and assisting in capturing,collaring and tracking deer, but then that's not a lot to some.

 

[Lupus]

Good Lord, no! No insinuation as to your criminality intended. That is something I know nothing about, one way or the other.

The comment was meant to illustrate that those who put themselves forward as being the 'be all and end all', and even get themselves into positions of authority on the back of it, sometimes turnout to be nothing of the sort, and in his case also had little regard for the law.

All I'm saying is to be careful of making opinions about a whole team of people, based countrywide, from your experience at DMG meetings. It is an artificial environment and doesn't necessarily reflect people in their true light. Lots of politics, posturing, and bluster in my experience.

Wolfie

 

[User00025]

Good Lord, no! No insinuation as to your criminality intended. That is something I know nothing about, one way or the other.

The comment was meant to illustrate that those who put themselves forward as being the 'be all and end all', and even get themselves into positions of authority on the back of it, sometimes turnout to be nothing of the sort, and in his case also had little regard for the law.

All I'm saying is to be careful of making opinions about a whole team of people, based countrywide, from your experience at DMG meetings. It is an artificial environment and doesn't necessarily reflect people in their true light. Lots of politics, posturing, and bluster in my experience.

Wolfie

You mean to tell me that politics and associated posturing is a bluff,and people are totally different when shown in their true light. Amazing you have now destroyed my complete faith in humanity, I won't know who to trust in future.

 

[Bladerunner]

That's very interesting Glyn. Any steer on roughly which part of the country and what species? I'm guessing some of the fallow hot spots, which would make sense. I understand the royal parks have made use of night licences for a long time.

Novice

Having worked in big public gardens, and knowing a great many people in the horticulture industry, gardens that are open 7 days a week, and close at dusk in the in winter, are often given night licenses, I have worked in two in the south of England that had these, it was before I was stalking so i don't know the exact details, but as students we were firmly warned not to walk through the gardens after 7 on Wednesdays. That was 9 years ago and they are still shooting at night now?

Again don't know details, but from memory it was Natural England (was it English Nature before?) were responsible for issuing paperwork? Someone will correct me if this is wrong?

Update: just looked at Natural England website, you can apply for night licence here

Deer licences - GOV.UK

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/568426/licence-shoot-deer-a16.pdf

 

[Lupus]

Ha! You got the wrong end of the stick there TFH. My fault for offering it, I suppose.

My experience of DMGs where the FC have been involved, is that the FC reps have remained slightly removed and professional, not getting involved in the politics and bluster. Stated things how they see them and reporting their figures. It's other members of the group who criticise and moan over their pints in huddles after the meeting, when in actual fact they have little to no idea how the FC works, or why it does what it does it. These were the people I was warning of. Taking their word for things when it isn't always so.

Insecure and jealous people often like to boost their egos by putting others down, while making out they're the dog's.

Wolfie

 

[User00025]

Ha! You got the wrong end of the stick there TFH. My fault for offering it, I suppose.


Insecure and jealous people often like to boost their egos by putting others down, while making out they're the dog's.

Wolfie

Different strokes Wolfie you have your opinions I have mine. So now I am insecure and jealous Eh. I know I am perfect and completely the Dogs Bx cos my Rupert told me when I got em all back alive, but hang on, we both worked for the Gov't then just like FC. Oh dear I have contradicted myself, never mind.

 

[novice]

Having worked in big public gardens, and knowing a great many people in the horticulture industry, gardens that are open 7 days a week, and close at dusk in the in winter, are often given night licenses, I have worked in two in the south of England that had these, it was before I was stalking so i don't know the exact details, but as students we were firmly warned not to walk through the gardens after 7 on Wednesdays. That was 9 years ago and they are still shooting at night now?

Again don't know details, but from memory it was Natural England (was it English Nature before?) were responsible for issuing paperwork? Someone will correct me if this is wrong?

Update: just looked at Natural England website, you can apply for night licence here

Deer licences - GOV.UK

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/568426/licence-shoot-deer-a16.pdf

Thanks for the input. Very interesting.

Novice

 

[deerly departed]

Bows and arrows perhaps!

Dont be barbsric even though they dropped game for generations....not to mention a huge part of our heritage and why we dont speak french lol

 

[deerly departed]

We cant shoot deer at night or use artificial aids. Thermal can be used in daylight and it gives old eyes a chance to spot stuff they would be oblivious too.. therefore its cheating. Like using a bow is over a knife or a rifle is over a bow or a telescopic sights is over irons or modern machining and rifled barrels over smooth bore. One could go on but you get the idea. Its a question of perspective and probably an issue to those who cant afford it or understand that an i surrounded by a circle means "ON"....

 

[deerly departed]

in my eyes the use of thermal to find deer crosses the line from "deer stalking" to "deer culling" which is fine if you need to cross that line, Many on here I am sure fall into the "deer culling" side and thats fine large amounts of ground with lots of fallow say that need to be hit back hard and thermal may well be a option or even for finding lost animals in cover or at low light ect (even tho questions may be asked as to why the shot was taken) would also be another good reason for the use of thermal, but I dont think its needed or warrented for most stalkers including professional stalkers who are guiding clients as stalking for me is stallking and giving the deer a fair chance on a level playing field, and before people say "yes but you use binos, scopes ect" yes I do but unlike the deer I cant smell them or hear them walking along.

How is a rifle that can drop at 100 yards with ease a "fair" advantage over a telescopic sight or thermal. Thermal can be used as a safety device too checking backstops for people as well as bambi.
I have no issue with thermal at all and as cost comes down....

 

[deerly departed]

Deer Stalking practiced by most is a sport and as such, personally I would never use Thermal unless shooting with a night licence on a heavy cull.
Ok everybody is having fun talking about the various gadgets we use (scopes,bino's etc) but IMHO shooting over open sights should be part of any test/certificate or basic start to stalking.
That would sort a few out! If you can't hit a 6" bull three times at 100 yds on the bounce with iron sights, you shouldn't be out there anyway.
Found my tin helmet last night, let the verbal commence.

Black powder smooth bore Old Bess muskets and a green laser. Thats fair.

 

[deerly departed]

Cliff is one ****ed off dude.

 

[deerly departed]

thermal/night vision and quad bikes,all on the poachers wish list.the deer in my area are being devasted by the use of all these bits of kit.all of this modern technology should have been very strictly licensed. now all and sundry have them..a very sad day for uk wild life.only my opinion of course.

Poachers dont.play by any rules other than dont get caught. Whatever point in history...poachers have always been ahead of the game and it will always be so.

Who is going to pay for licencing. The cost alone would be enormous and it certainly wont solve any problems...just drive it underground. And as many professional pest controllers and deer managers NEED the advantage.....you want to penailse them for using kit that would just go on the black market. I understand since the handgun ban...the sale if illehlgal pistols has increased.....your belief does hold up when logic is applied

 

[deerly departed]

I quite agree its his company his rules, i have no problem with any of it, i was commenting on the logic that’s all, i started with open sights and no binos. It was seen as unsporting to have telescopic sights.

Exactly.......we used pit traps...then spears....then bows and crossbows....the powder and tubes came along. It is purely a progression of applied technology and this crying "foul" has gone on at each step up the technilogical ladder.

Nor will it cease in the way technology will continue to develop. Who knows....maybe we will have airbourne drones with tech that can ID species...sex.....and drop remotely and call in GPS coordinates for remote collection in a modified Toyota Prius.....we have to consider the green element to.

The use of thermal is here to stay. Its a damned good tool and adds to our anility to be UNFAIR which lates face it....as soon as we move away from hand to hand combat....ANY tool that gives an advantage is catagorically unfair.

 

[deerly departed]

Get with the times....pot noodle

 

[User00025]

Black powder smooth bore Old Bess muskets and a green laser. Thats fair.

Better without the Laser thanks. Blimey you shot out of the woodwork like a demented death watch beatle with all those posts.
Sod it I'm off to whack a couple of does with my single shot musket and one of those new fangled scopes, back when it's pitch black,don't need a thermal, only to keep my ancient body warm.