Park deer vs farmed deer

[kingstonandy]

Is there a clear distinction between the two? Am I right in thinking that park deer are generally culled with a rifle whereas farmed deer are slaughtered at an abattoir?
Presumably farmed deer are considered livestock by DEFRA & APHA, so what is the status of park deer?

 

[jb7x57]

Deer park deer come under the deer act
Farmed deer are classed as farm animals

 

[Bo Diddley]

@VSS

 

[slider]

Jb7x57 is correct.

As domestic farmed animals farmed deer are subject to similar traceability (tagging) and medicine records as cattle and sheep

 

[VSS]

Park deer are classified as wild animals, albeit within an enclosed area, and therefore can be culled and processed in accordance with the same legislation that applies to wild deer. However, they must be killed by hunting (ie, stalked and shot with a rifle). Also, they should not be handled, medicated, eartagged or fed concentrates although a lot of parks do, which is wrong and should result in them losing their park status. The only management intervention should be the provision of supplementary feeding of hay, silage or roots during severe weather, for welfare reasons.
Park deer can only be culled during the appropriate season for the species.

Farmed deer are domestic livestock. They can be handled, housed, medicated, fed etc, and traceability rules apply re movements between holdings and so on. Generally farmed deer need to be killed in an abattoir, but in some circumstances they can be killed on farm and transported to an abattoir for further processing.
Farmed deer can be killed at any time of year.

There should be a very clear distinction between the two management systems, but in reality the boundary is blurred by many grey areas.

The chap who can tell you a lot more about this than I can is @cyberstag.

 

[timbrayford]

Park deer are classified as wild animals, albeit within an enclosed area, and therefore can be culled and processed in accordance with the same legislation that applies to wild deer. However, they must be killed by hunting (ie, stalked and shot with a rifle). Also, they should not be handled, medicated, eartagged or fed concentrates although a lot of parks do, which is wrong and should result in them losing their park status. The only management intervention should be the provision of supplementary feeding of hay, silage or roots during severe weather, for welfare reasons.
Park deer can only be culled during the appropriate season for the species.

Farmed deer are domestic livestock. They can be handled, housed, medicated, fed etc, and traceability rules apply re movements between holdings and so on. Generally farmed deer need to be killed in an abattoir, but in some circumstances they can be killed on farm and transported to an abattoir for further processing.
Farmed deer can be killed at any time of year.

There should be a very clear distinction between the two management systems, but in reality the boundary is blurred by many grey areas.

The chap who can tell you a lot more about this than I can is @cyberstag.

Supplementary to a very informative post if you shoot an escaped farmed deer without the owner's permission you could be held liable for two criminal offences:- 1. Criminal Damage if you shoot the deer 2. Theft if you keep the carcase.
This applies even if you have permission to stalk wild deer on the ground on which the farmed one was shot.

 

[Xone262]

Interestingly I’ve seen a few farmed/parked deer on different sites in the south. The park fallow were tiny compared to the wild fallow I shoot, more like roe size. Sika on the farm we’re also tiny. I know supermarkets like their consistency but a shame these exist when the wild animals seem to thrive and grow much better. Not sure how they compare in a taste test!

 

[cyberstag]

Ha, don't get me started. As VSS says the rules appear to say one thing but everything depends on the interpretation of the rules by whoever is dealing with your circumstances. My own opinion is that there can in reality be only 2 categories of deer; wild or farmed. Park deer are farmed under the definition of farming as being livestock being kept for the purpose of business. Park owners will argue differently of course but if they are not running a business how can they be selling carcasses to a game dealer and therefore deriving income from their land and stock.

I feel things are about to change though because of the TB situation. Farmed deer are subject to FULL veterinary inspection in the abattoir. I say full because the guts, head and all the relevant bits that could demonstrate the presence of TB are presented to the vet. Wild or park deer that are put into game dealers will have had the head, guts and anything dodgy looking removed before going in so the meat inspector at the game dealer never gets the opportunity to do a proper inspection.

Farmed deer are therefore competing on a very unlevel playing field. There have been cases now of TB being transmitted to humans via their pets. Pets are now fed a lot of venison so there are obvious public health dangers.
Defra and APHA are by necessity having to get to grips with the TB problem party because of the proximity to cattle herds of both deer farms and parks that are affected by TB.

I think I am right in saying that 5 parks have had all their deer killed as a result of confirmed TB but of course once the land has been rested for a while they can restock with, yes you have guessed it, more deer from another park without any testing. Defra do have the power to enforce testing in certain circumstances but until recently the skin test that we have been FORCED to use is almost useless. There is at least one type of blood test being trialled and so far it's looking good and a farmer may actually be able after a considerable period of time and much expense be able to test clear; probably after killing many reactors.

For us deer farmers it is all your worst nightmares come true and most of us have good handling facilities to enable testing. Most parks would not be able to test, you need all the deer in on Day 1, again on Day 3 and again about 2 weeks later for bloods to be taken. For example I was helping a friend whose handling system I built do his TB testing. We put through 640 red deer in 8 hours on each of those 3 occasions. 8 people were involved including the vet and his assistant so you can work out the labour bill.

There is a saying that the worst words a farmer can hear are "I am from the government and I am here to help you" If you remember that in all your dealings with officialdom it will certainly help but in reality there is usually only one winner.

We live in a rapidly changing world and as far as I am concerned the faster deer are classified as either wild or farmed (with no park category) the better off we all shall be.

 

[VSS]

Ha, don't get me started. As VSS says the rules appear to say one thing but everything depends on the interpretation of the rules by whoever is dealing with your circumstances. My own opinion is that there can in reality be only 2 categories of deer; wild or farmed. Park deer are farmed under the definition of farming as being livestock being kept for the purpose of business. Park owners will argue differently of course but if they are not running a business how can they be selling carcasses to a game dealer and therefore deriving income from their land and stock.

I feel things are about to change though because of the TB situation. Farmed deer are subject to FULL veterinary inspection in the abattoir. I say full because the guts, head and all the relevant bits that could demonstrate the presence of TB are presented to the vet. Wild or park deer that are put into game dealers will have had the head, guts and anything dodgy looking removed before going in so the meat inspector at the game dealer never gets the opportunity to do a proper inspection.

Farmed deer are therefore competing on a very unlevel playing field. There have been cases now of TB being transmitted to humans via their pets. Pets are now fed a lot of venison so there are obvious public health dangers.
Defra and APHA are by necessity having to get to grips with the TB problem party because of the proximity to cattle herds of both deer farms and parks that are affected by TB.

I think I am right in saying that 5 parks have had all their deer killed as a result of confirmed TB but of course once the land has been rested for a while they can restock with, yes you have guessed it, more deer from another park without any testing. Defra do have the power to enforce testing in certain circumstances but until recently the skin test that we have been FORCED to use is almost useless. There is at least one type of blood test being trialled and so far it's looking good and a farmer may actually be able after a considerable period of time and much expense be able to test clear; probably after killing many reactors.

For us deer farmers it is all your worst nightmares come true and most of us have good handling facilities to enable testing. Most parks would not be able to test, you need all the deer in on Day 1, again on Day 3 and again about 2 weeks later for bloods to be taken. For example I was helping a friend whose handling system I built do his TB testing. We put through 640 red deer in 8 hours on each of those 3 occasions. 8 people were involved including the vet and his assistant so you can work out the labour bill.

There is a saying that the worst words a farmer can hear are "I am from the government and I am here to help you" If you remember that in all your dealings with officialdom it will certainly help but in reality there is usually only one winner.

We live in a rapidly changing world and as far as I am concerned the faster deer are classified as either wild or farmed (with no park category) the better off we all shall be.

While I can't say I agree with you (well as the owner of a park herd I would say that, wouldn't I ), I do think it's high time that the definitions were enforced. I know several "parks" that routinely handle their deer, medicate them, wean the offspring & house them, and provide supplementary feed. That to me is a farmed herd, not a park herd, and they shouldn't be allowed to exploit the loophole that enables them to sell venison as "wild". (The fact that they're owned by nobility probably enables them to bend every rule in the book).

I also know of a farmed herd that kills on farm and sells as per wild deer. He needs to make up his mind whether he's a park or a farm, and align his management accordingly.

Interestingly I’ve seen a few farmed/parked deer on different sites in the south. The park fallow were tiny compared to the wild fallow I shoot, more like roe size. Sika on the farm we’re also tiny. I know supermarkets like their consistency but a shame these exist when the wild animals seem to thrive and grow much better. Not sure how they compare in a taste test!

During the era when park herds were largely kept for ornamental purposes they were deliberately bred to be smaller in the body. This added to the sense of scale and perspective of the park, and also made the antlers look more impressive from a distance.

 

[Scuffy]

During the era when park herds were largely kept for ornamental purposes they were deliberately bred to be smaller in the body. This added to the sense of scale and perspective of the park, and also made the antlers look more impressive from a distance.


I’ve been involved in park deer all my life and never knew that.
Are there any parks where this is still the case ?

 

[VSS]

I’ve been involved in park deer all my life and never knew that.
Are there any parks where this is still the case ?

I don't know the answer to that, but there are park herds that have remained free from any significant outside influence since that time, so it's quite possible that the effects of selective breeding are still in evidence.
Incidentally, my park fallow are smaller than the wild fallow that I shoot, but this is largely due to the fact that mine don't get the opportunity to raid people's corn fields, and I stick religiously to the "no supplementary feeding" rule.

 

[VSS]

Supplementary to a very informative post if you shoot an escaped farmed deer without the owner's permission you could be held liable for two criminal offences:- 1. Criminal Damage if you shoot the deer 2. Theft if you keep the carcase.
This applies even if you have permission to stalk wild deer on the ground on which the farmed one was shot.

This is true ^^^ unless it can be shown that the owner of the deer had abandoned all attempts to recapture it, in which case they're considered to have relinquished ownership.
(But even so, you wouldn't want to put it in the food chain, in case it had been medicated with something prior to its escape).

 

[kingstonandy]

Ha, don't get me started. As VSS says the rules appear to say one thing but everything depends on the interpretation of the rules by whoever is dealing with your circumstances. My own opinion is that there can in reality be only 2 categories of deer; wild or farmed. Park deer are farmed under the definition of farming as being livestock being kept for the purpose of business. Park owners will argue differently of course but if they are not running a business how can they be selling carcasses to a game dealer and therefore deriving income from their land and stock.

I feel things are about to change though because of the TB situation. Farmed deer are subject to FULL veterinary inspection in the abattoir. I say full because the guts, head and all the relevant bits that could demonstrate the presence of TB are presented to the vet. Wild or park deer that are put into game dealers will have had the head, guts and anything dodgy looking removed before going in so the meat inspector at the game dealer never gets the opportunity to do a proper inspection.

Farmed deer are therefore competing on a very unlevel playing field. There have been cases now of TB being transmitted to humans via their pets. Pets are now fed a lot of venison so there are obvious public health dangers.
Defra and APHA are by necessity having to get to grips with the TB problem party because of the proximity to cattle herds of both deer farms and parks that are affected by TB.

I think I am right in saying that 5 parks have had all their deer killed as a result of confirmed TB but of course once the land has been rested for a while they can restock with, yes you have guessed it, more deer from another park without any testing. Defra do have the power to enforce testing in certain circumstances but until recently the skin test that we have been FORCED to use is almost useless. There is at least one type of blood test being trialled and so far it's looking good and a farmer may actually be able after a considerable period of time and much expense be able to test clear; probably after killing many reactors.

For us deer farmers it is all your worst nightmares come true and most of us have good handling facilities to enable testing. Most parks would not be able to test, you need all the deer in on Day 1, again on Day 3 and again about 2 weeks later for bloods to be taken. For example I was helping a friend whose handling system I built do his TB testing. We put through 640 red deer in 8 hours on each of those 3 occasions. 8 people were involved including the vet and his assistant so you can work out the labour bill.

There is a saying that the worst words a farmer can hear are "I am from the government and I am here to help you" If you remember that in all your dealings with officialdom it will certainly help but in reality there is usually only one winner.

We live in a rapidly changing world and as far as I am concerned the faster deer are classified as either wild or farmed (with no park category) the better off we all shall be.

What are the bloods tests for? We do the day 1, day 3 skin tests every 6 months on our cattle but no bloods are taken.

 

[monarman]

Most deerparks have to provide an income from the venison that runs around in there... and there are many variables within parks that may mean supplementary feeding is useful. I feed my reds with cattle nuts, this helps them put on weight (which means a higher income from the carcasses) and also helps me get close up to them so I can assess health etc. It also helps them get their condition back after the rut and aids the fecundity in my hinds (2 year old are getting pregnant). I put silage out in winter for ad lib feeding which takes a bit of pressure off the grass.... I also put out rumenvite high energy mineral locks which the fallow seem to like.
My park is venison assured and supply for a contract that goes to high end supermarkets... .
I cull within the legislation of wild deer ... we have no handling facilities ....

 

[potshotpat]

Just to put it out there. I seem to recall certain deer ( farmed??) could be killed on farm to be processed within a two hour journey of the abattoir. Also deer being de-antlered (12 ??weeks) before being slaughtered at an approved abattoir. Contamination ( not gross contamination) is more permissible on wild deer than farmed. It's a minefield out there.

 

[VSS]

Just to put it out there. I seem to recall certain deer ( farmed??) could be killed on farm to be processed within a two hour journey of the abattoir. Also deer being de-antlered (12 ??weeks) before being slaughtered at an approved abattoir. Contamination ( not gross contamination) is more permissible on wild deer than farmed. It's a minefield out there.

Yes, farmed deer can in some circumstances be killed on farm and then transferred to an abattoir, unopened, for further processing, as I mentioned in post #5. I forget the exact timescale. There are others on here who will know. Farmed deer are also typically de-antlered. This would not be possible in a bone-fide park herd (although I know some that do!)
Not sure what your implying re: contamination?

Most deerparks have to provide an income from the venison that runs around in there... and there are many variables within parks that may mean supplementary feeding is useful. I feed my reds with cattle nuts, this helps them put on weight (which means a higher income from the carcasses) and also helps me get close up to them so I can assess health etc. It also helps them get their condition back after the rut and aids the fecundity in my hinds (2 year old are getting pregnant). I put silage out in winter for ad lib feeding which takes a bit of pressure off the grass.... I also put out rumenvite high energy mineral locks which the fallow seem to like.
My park is venison assured and supply for a contract that goes to high end supermarkets... .
I cull within the legislation of wild deer ... we have no handling facilities ....

Park deer should only receive supplementary feeding for welfare reasons, not to increase carcass weights. I believe that's what's in the guidelines, anyway. If people bend those rules (for example, by feeding cattle nuts to increase carcass weights) then inevitably the rules will be tightened or the exemption applying to parks will be removed altogether.

 

[potshotpat]

Yes, farmed deer can in some circumstances be killed on farm and then transferred to an abattoir, unopened, for further processing, as I mentioned in post #5. I forget the exact timescale. There are others on here who will know. Farmed deer are also typically de-antlered. This would not be possible in a bone-fide park herd (although I know some that do!)
Not sure what your implying re: contamination?

Park deer should only receive supplementary feeding for welfare reasons, not to increase carcass weights. I believe that's what's in the guidelines, anyway. If people bend those rules (for example, by feeding cattle nuts to increase carcass weights) then inevitably the rules will be tightened or the exemption applying to parks will be removed altogether.

Re contamination. I'm only pointing out that shot stalked deer are allowed a certain amount of contamination ( not gross contamination ) through poor shot placement. Than deer processed through a controlled abattoir environment, as in presented with dirty animals or poorly or untrained processors that would be picked up by the OV or inspector on site.

 

[VSS]

Re contamination. I'm only pointing out that shot stalked deer are allowed a certain amount of contamination ( not gross contamination ) through poor shot placement. Than deer processed through a controlled abattoir environment, as in presented with dirty animals or poorly or untrained processors that would be picked up by the OV or inspector on site.

It is precisely to avoid such a discrepancy that anyone who sells wild (or park) deer carcasses must have their Large Game Meat Hygiene certificate (previously obtained via DSC1 (now 2) and evidenced by the "trained hunter" number, or through a standalone training course).

Incidentally, in an abattoir, contaminated parts of a carcass can be trimmed off and the rest of the carcass be considered fit, just as we might do with an area of shot damage on a wild shot deer. Even infected areas such as abscesses can be trimmed out in an abattoir.

 

[griff]

This is true ^^^ unless it can be shown that the owner of the deer had abandoned all attempts to recapture it, in which case they're considered to have relinquished ownership.
(But even so, you wouldn't want to put it in the food chain, in case it had been medicated with something prior to its escape).

Would you be breaking the law if it had a tag in its ear as most farmed deer do?

 

[VSS]

Would you be breaking the law if it had a tag in its ear as most farmed deer do?

You would be guilty of criminal damage and theft, unless it could be shown that the original owner had abandoned his rights to ownership (for example, having given up on all attempts to recapture the animal).