Personal Locator Becons/GPS Tracking Systems

[Moray Outfitting]

Kuwinda

To be clear this is intended as a debate not argument.

I follow your line of not 'relying on on any one get out of trouble card' - entirely sensible. Any well thought out safety system is layered. Additionally, there is no easy answer to the old chestnut of deciding just how much distress you are in! Cold injuries frequently become major dramas because it is so hard to make just such a call - and often it is too late made. At what point do you press that button?

The PLB system works - a distress signal is 99.99% likely to get through. Almost by definition we may never know about some of the failures! Whether there are the resources to actually do anything for you is a separate issue - and exactly why I urge all shooters to actively support and shout for them. In the UK could be better - but not bad right now. However, the threats of utterly destroying the most valuable parts of our system remain constant.

However, PLBs directly help the very issue you raise as opposed to compounding it. Over a decade + of use elsewhere in the world supports this. False alarms are rare with PLBs - which are subtly different from EPIRBs - but any activation ultimately comes back to a registered owner, with contact details. Vastly reducing expenditure of money, time and effort on 'false' alarms.

In fact part of the resistance to PLB land use was exactly on the resource and cost front. It was the experience of the system elsewhere and support from SAR professionals that played a big part in the change - they support it.

I didnt read the links you posted - particularly your last one - as supporting your position in your last paragraph; just the opposite when you read the Coast Guard response. Your earlier posts openly admitted you did not know a lot about PLBs - all of that is genuinely fine - its an open forum and debate.

My concern is that the tone of your posts may put people off; based on assertions that are slightly off beam in terms of world experience with this exact system over several years. I believe ( strictly personal view ) PLB land use is a huge step forward in safety options. That's not to say everyone must rush out and get one, but they are well worth careful consideration as part of a wider plan and careful forethought ( think we are in complete agreement on this last bit! )

 

[kuwinda]

PLB's work on exactly the same 406MHz GMDSS system that EPIRB's work on - and the system for handling and directing those alerts is the same. The differences are technical - EPIRBS are buoyant and have a 48 Hr battery life.

My point was that the very resources to handle those alerts are at this minute being reduced to the point where many believe they will cease to function effectively. (I'm not entirely sure what happens to the Kinloss SAR centre now that RAF Kinloss no longer exists?). From my own experience the response to any type of alert (at sea at any rate) is not immediate unless corroberated from several sources - and indeed this must be so not from any lack of willingness on the part of SAR services but to protect those resources from the very large percentage of false alarms. That situation is not going to improve in the future.

Having been in those life threatening situations a number of times I say the best thing is - just don't go there!

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Kuwinda

Thanks for the reply expanding your points - appreciate it.

Think we are actually of a similar mind - the alert system works, but real question is what is then done - or more strictly able to be done with the alert once received. Anyone watching Highland Rescue etc must have picked up on the tasking conflicts and distances that keep cropping up.

My position is that the registered nature of PLBs has provided a reduction in cost/ wasted effort as opposed to a massive bloom in call outs. Which is good. Whether the 'political mind' will seize that to enact further cuts is my worry on that front.

If even the current proposed plans and cutbacks proceed - and we are in an unacceptable position already - hence my suggestion that all shooters should get interested and be proactive. To take your point that would well be applied to doing all you can to make sure you dont need SAR services in addition to campaigning .

Personally dont know what is happening with Kinloss - we haven't had any crew through a recent course. One of the SAR aircrew volunteers at my step-sons ATC Sqdn in Forres ( another institution under threat ), but havent bumped into him in a while. However, via those sources previously, confirmed that PLB alert is treated as live unless registration form incomplete or enquiries from it give cause for suspicion - not being able to make contact would be taken to confirm likely genuine. This is what happened in the NZ story quoted.

Given location component in the signal, they can swiftly check if the area appears genuine and gets tasking priority as they have a defined location - as opposed to ' a walker somewhere east of Ben Nevis' type call. And that's driven by cost saving - so something of a double edge sword.

Hope the joint banter helping others give a bit of thought to things.

 

[countrryboy]

K
Why is there so many false alarms at sea? Is it the EPIRBS going off or being triggered accidently or poeple/saliors pushing them when not really an emergancy?

Like i said i'm jist back from NZ and most hunters wouldnae go out without it. Even one of the pig hunters i met (who was a bit of a red neck) had it permantly attached to his pig belt next to his 'sticking' knife, and he was the last type off person i'd expect to carry one. All the huntimg mag's over there really pushing them too/
I handled a few different types off plb out there and to be honest was never very sure how u set they off anyway, usually come in there own pouch and when u take them out u have to lift and fold things to get access to the button (I was scrared to fiddle too much incase went off) but i would say pretty much impossible to set off accidentally. I think the rules on PLB's say there has to be 2 distinct movements to set it off to minimise accidental false alarms.

 

[bambislayer]

We have the spot 2. And use the messages quite a bit, the message I have just says "I,m ok", usefull if you are r inning late and out of mobile signal. Saves any false alarms.

 

[kuwinda]

Why are there so many false alarms? Guess its the old addage of artificial intelligence being no match for natural stupidity.

In my case the unit (ancient Jotun 181Mz - still working but needs replaced hence the interest) has a "pull the pin" type mechanism - I think all EPIRB's are like this. Depending on the model it would be possible (difficult but possible) to activate it accidentally. All DSC radios work by having a spring loaded flap over the red button - which you then need to hold down for five seconds to activate - millions of false alarms - how?

The Spot 2 thingy sounds useful - no doubt costs though in subscription?

 

[Sharpie]

Why are there so many false alarms? Guess its the old addage of artificial intelligence being no match for natural stupidity.

I'd like to see hard evidence of "so many false alarms" from EPIRBs and PLBs.

I'm not interested in anecdotal stories about DSC alerts over marine VHF, which is essentially a short range system relying on other vessels within range responding, if beyond range of coastguard stations.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the alert or reporting mechanisms used by EPIRB and PLBs, which AFAIK are very very reliable, taken extremely seriously and have saved many lives, some in quite extraordinary circumstances.

Furthermore the handling of land based alerts is independent of the coastguard.

The worldwide coordination of SAR is extraordinarily well done.

I'm sorry but statements such as "Unless the unit has either a built in GPS (don't think any PLB's do?) or is linked to a GPS only a very approximate fix is possible" indicate to me that the author is rather ignorant of the technology, and/or is confusing it with the DSC VHF radio system, which has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I too have an old Jotron EPIRB, which is currently registered to my Ship Portable Radio Licence, along with my VHF callsign, including next of kin contact details. Jotron advise me that it is still well worth keeping it serviced, even if I also buy a PLB, as the 121.5 MHz signal is still used by SAR for homing in, is still monitored by aircraft, and my old Jotron will have a longer transmission time than most PLBs. Its not something I would carry while stalking, but it will not be retired unless it becomes unserviceable.

 

[Sharpie]

In my case the unit (ancient Jotun 181Mz - still working but needs replaced hence the interest) has a "pull the pin" type mechanism - I think all EPIRB's are like this. Depending on the model it would be possible (difficult but possible) to activate it accidentally.

The name is Jotron.

Old ones work on either 121.5 MHz or 243.0 MHz. There is no such thing as 181 MHz. 121.5 MHz is still useful, as I explained.

Never seen a "pull the pin" mechanism. No they are not "all like this". My Jotron has a slider switch with button safety, designed for use with numb hands. I could even trigger it with my nose if I had no feeling or grip left. No possibility of accidental activation.

Category 1 EPIRBs are held in a bracket with a hydrostatic release. If your vessel sinks they will release, float to the surface and start transmitting automatically.

These do occasionally get triggered accidentally, e.g. if a lifeboat is swept off a ship in a storm.

Category II are manually operated, like mine.

All DSC radios work by having a spring loaded flap over the red button - which you then need to hold down for five seconds to activate - millions of false alarms - how?

You say "millions of false alarms". Please back this up with facts and data, not that it is in any way relevant.

 

[kuwinda]

I'd like to see hard evidence of "so many false alarms" from EPIRBs and PLBs.

I'm not interested in anecdotal stories about DSC alerts over marine VHF, which is essentially a short range system relying on other vessels within range responding, if beyond range of coastguard stations.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the alert or reporting mechanisms used by EPIRB and PLBs, which AFAIK are very very reliable, taken extremely seriously and have saved many lives, some in quite extraordinary circumstances.

Furthermore the handling of land based alerts is independent of the coastguard.

The worldwide coordination of SAR is extraordinarily well done.

I'm sorry but statements such as "Unless the unit has either a built in GPS (don't think any PLB's do?) or is linked to a GPS only a very approximate fix is possible" indicate to me that the author is rather ignorant of the technology, and/or is confusing it with the DSC VHF radio system, which has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I too have an old Jotron EPIRB, which is currently registered to my Ship Portable Radio Licence, along with my VHF callsign, including next of kin contact details. Jotron advise me that it is still well worth keeping it serviced, even if I also buy a PLB, as the 121.5 MHz signal is still used by SAR for homing in, is still monitored by aircraft, and my old Jotron will have a longer transmission time than most PLBs. Its not something I would carry while stalking, but it will not be retired unless it becomes unserviceable.

I think the evidence (and the links) are posted above if you'd care to read?

Unless the EPIRB is either GPS equiped or has a NMEA data link to another GPS the data burst it sends cannot pass on the position of the signal. This is done through coordination of the signals to the Geostationary and LEO satelites. Its been a long time since I did my SRC and ICC but from my (obviously poor) memory the time taken to do this is between a half hour and an hour depending on satelite positions. This may of course have changed - things do. As far as I'm aware all EPIRB's still have a 121 transmitter built in - this can then be taken up by the helo when within 15 miles or so range. The 121 satelite receivers were switched off earlier this year or last year - so its fairly useless as an alert device. (I have no confusion with DSC radio - of which I have two and like you these are registered on my Ships Radio License with the MMSI)

Your opinion of SAR services is noted, appreciated and I am sure echoed by those reading - but my point was that we should not in the first place be relying on such services and should not place total faith in their always being available.

 

[kuwinda]

The name is Jotron.

Old ones work on either 121.5 MHz or 243.0 MHz. There is no such thing as 181 MHz. 121.5 MHz is still useful, as I explained.

Never seen a "pull the pin" mechanism. No they are not "all like this". My Jotron has a slider switch with button safety, designed for use with numb hands. I could even trigger it with my nose if I had no feeling or grip left. No possibility of accidental activation.

Category 1 EPIRBs are held in a bracket with a hydrostatic release. If your vessel sinks they will release, float to the surface and start transmitting automatically.

These do occasionally get triggered accidentally, e.g. if a lifeboat is swept off a ship in a storm.

Category II are manually operated, like mine.

You say "millions of false alarms". Please back this up with facts and data, not that it is in any way relevant.

I can only say that mine does indeed have a pin with a pull tag to activate - it is very old, but the battery is still working at least on the "test".

"No possibility of accidental activation" - thats a sweeping statement if ever there was one!!! As they say "stranger things happen at sea" - if it can go wrong it will.

"Millions of false alarms" - facts? Yes it is indeed irrelevant to this discussion, but the fact that you even have to ask this question speaks more of absolute lack of experience than anything else. From personnal experience I have lost count of the number of false alerts coming howling out of the set - most people now assume a DSC alarm call is false unless its repeated or is backed up with a Ch 16 Mayday (which WILL be responded to - even though the CG no longer monitor it) flares or some other alert. Lots of discussion here:-
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=323820&highlight=DSC+alerts+false&page=3 and in a great many other places .....

 

[Sharpie]

Unless the EPIRB is either GPS equiped or has a NMEA data link to another GPS the data burst it sends cannot pass on the position of the signal.

GPS data is not required, and may well not be present even if a GPS receiver is connected, e.g. if it has not locked on. The beacon is located by the COSPAS-SARSAT system using doppler shift techniques, which fix the position to within 2 square kilometres.

If GPS data is also available, this can pinpoint the beacon to within 100 metres.

However GPS data alone is not regarded as sufficient. The beacon location is not considered "resolved" until either two doppler fixes match, or one doppler fix confirms the GPS location.

Currently there are 6 LEOSAR satellites in polar orbit giving 100% global coverage and position location, with a worst-case delay of about 2 hours until a satellite is in range. There are also a number of GEOSAR satellites in geostationary orbit which cannot locate position but can pass on the GPS data. Coverage is not complete.

In future the development of MEOSAR satellites may provide near-instantaneous position fixes using a different method.

As far as I'm aware all EPIRB's still have a 121 transmitter built in - this can then be taken up by the helo when within 15 miles or so range. The 121 satelite receivers were switched off earlier this year or last year - so its fairly useless as an alert device

Correct, all 406 MHz beacons also have a 121.5 MHz transmitter, which is the signal used by SAR to home-in. Whilst satellite monitoring on 121.5 MHz was switched off in 2009 it is still the global aviation distress frequency and is monitored by most aircraft. If an old 121.5 MHz EPIRB is triggered there is still a chance that it will be noticed, or if a SAR operation has already been started in the area the signal will be detected and tracked down. Either way the manufacturer's advice was that the EPIRB is still worth keeping in service and carrying in addition to a 406 MHz device, not instead of.

A 406 MHz beacon is the "gold standard". If correctly registered it will be recognised worldwide by the local SAR system. It uses a frequency and transmission power, monitored by a comprehensive space-segment which mean it can be relied on. A GPS fix is not required but if available can help further pinpoint the location. The inclusion of GPS used to be an expensive optional extra, nowadays the small extra cost means it would be silly not to have it.

 

[Sharpie]

What are the other options and does any one know of any uk based companies that deal in them, would prefer to buy from a company that can advise u rather than internet shop.

Spot was the original commercial system, it uses the GlobalStar voice/data satellite system. It is one-way only.

There are other systems using the Iridium satellite system e.g. Yellowbrick Tracking - truly global satellite tracking beacons for yacht racing, adventures, treks, expeditions and challenges and InReach Inreach and Yellowbrick support 2-way communication.

All these commercial systems rely on much lower power and higher frequencies than the 406 MHz system, and rely on GPS for location fixing, so are inherently far less robust, if an emergency distress call is your primary concern. A 406 MHz beacon will work in situations where others may well not, e.g. in dense woodland, down a ravine etc. It will be designed, constructed and tested to a very high standard. It also does not need to have its battery regularly charged, unlike the alternatives.

The extra features of e.g. a Spot could be very useful, but I would suggest buying one in addition to a 406 MHz beacon, not instead of.

 

[Sharpie]

We have just got something called 'skyguard', only recieved mine a couple of hours ago and haven't opened the box yet. Glyn

Hi Glyn, AFAIK skyguard uses a mobile 'phone network to report. Primarily over GPRS data, but via text message as a backup. Position is determined by GPS, so requires a decent sky view. I don't know which mobile network they use.

So not suitable in areas without mobile coverage, and not necessarily to be relied on in areas with patchy coverage (if you get my drift).

Jonathan

 

[User00001]

Hi Glyn, AFAIK skyguard uses a mobile 'phone network to report. Primarily over GPRS data, but via text message as a backup. Position is determined by GPS, so requires a decent sky view. I don't know which mobile network they use.

So not suitable in areas without mobile coverage, and not necessarily to be relied on in areas with patchy coverage (if you get my drift).

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan,
That all sounds correct, I've got to get my head around the instruction manual tonight and start using it tomorrow.
Best wishes,
Glyn.

 

[countrryboy]

Alright folks

Just an update i ended up going for a Lerome Inreach was slighlty dearer than Spot 2 (well double the price really at £200) just gettinit connected up to the network the now so still to early to give u a proper review type thing.

For those that are interrested the Inreach is very similar to Spot2 but u can programme the time intervals it sends a GPS location (instead off the set 10min intervals with Spot2) this should increase the battery life quite a bit. Like i said not used it yet but hoping to get 1 week to 10 days out off 2 batteries

Bizzare question but would it be possible to hard wire an Inreach direct to the quad battery? It will obviously need some sort off transformer? to regulate the power/current from 12v to (2 AA= guesing 3v?) the inreach has a connection socket for smart phones, so if that was hard wired to quad would that work, if current/voltage was reduced/regulated.
I cannae really see my dad ever carrying it on his person and we are never that far from bike so would mean he doesnae have to worry about batteries, that's the logic behind my daft idea anyway.

cheers

 

[ferretmanabu]

Hi mate,

I have the SPOT 2. I recently walked the whole pennine way over three weeks, using the SPOT for around 8-10 hours a day and the batteries only needed changing once. If I remember correctly it only needs 3 AAA batteries. I think the battery consumption is quite low because there is no LED display to power.

Alright folks

Just an update i ended up going for a Lerome Inreach was slighlty dearer than Spot 2 (well double the price really at £200) just gettinit connected up to the network the now so still to early to give u a proper review type thing.

For those that are interrested the Inreach is very similar to Spot2 but u can programme the time intervals it sends a GPS location (instead off the set 10min intervals with Spot2) this should increase the battery life quite a bit. Like i said not used it yet but hoping to get 1 week to 10 days out off 2 batteries

Bizzare question but would it be possible to hard wire an Inreach direct to the quad battery? It will obviously need some sort off transformer? to regulate the power/current from 12v to (2 AA= guesing 3v?) the inreach has a connection socket for smart phones, so if that was hard wired to quad would that work, if current/voltage was reduced/regulated.
I cannae really see my dad ever carrying it on his person and we are never that far from bike so would mean he doesnae have to worry about batteries, that's the logic behind my daft idea anyway.

cheers