Pine Marten - and other predator releases

[jall55]

Personally we should have big predators in the UK. Controversial, yes, but in the modern world, I think we need to learn to live with nature.

Large predators keep the numbers of small predators in check, therefore there is probably less predatory burden.

Crows, badgers, pine martens are getting a bad rap for nesting birds etc. They do take such birds, but wild birds evolve with a predatory burden. Our song birds, ground nesting birds are not struggling because of predators. Much much greater effect is modern agriculture, reduction in biodiversity and complete loss of insect life etc, which underpin all those populations.

Take Blue Tits. A pair of Blue Tits need 2 chicks to get to breeding adult hood to keep population stable. They will typically have two clutches of half a dozen or more eggs a year. If there is not the insect life to support such intensity of reproduction any predation has a huge effect.

As for livestock - cattle / sheep etc, in the UK we have completely forgotten about animal husbandry. Sheep stick them out on the open moor and round them up a in Autumn and bring them to the in bye land for the winter. Most other parts of the world sheep are grazed in flocks with a shepherd moving them from one bit of grazing to another - the grazing is properly grazed and the sheep do well. Ditto for cattle.

In this modern world of AI and robots, mankind is going need something to do and looking after livestock is probably one of the few jobs that cannot by AI - albeit robotic milking is already widespread.

With predators there also needs to be clear rules of engagement - not complete protection, but there needs to be the ability to manage problem animals in a way that predators do keep their distance.

However in the British Isles, very few seem to be able to take a long term holistic view on life. Every is about me, today and sod the rest or the future.

The thing with how many of the organisations is that they are releasing multiple predators on already stressed and thinly spread prey

One predator against 100 lapwing - usually the lapwing fight it off or distract the predataion event
Multiple predators against 20 lapwing - major predation event

The way so many of these organisations then supplementary feed and nuture these predators means they increase and never die off either

Its irresponsible at best and getting in many cases to be criminally insane

 

[Scarpa]

In my region of Austria they have just had to shoot two wolves due to livestock predation. Most of the wolves stay in the high Alpine regions and prey on deer but wandering youngsters seeking a pack can sometimes start to hit sheep and goats. Current population estimate is 56 individuals so a fairly low density.

 

[Freeforester]

Aye Ion
I was going to suggest Otter too.
Can have a major impact on duck ponds, even wild migratory duck will stay clear of fed ponds with an otter bothering them.

A few years ago a mate was enjoying watching a family of Mallard.
The usual started off at 8 or 10 and every nite or 2 their would be another 1 .missing.
At the age could off been anything.
Eventually 3 left getting bigger, seen the Otter take the bloody mother.

A local nature reserve i was on committee for years, and still do practical chainsaw/tree surgery jobs for them for free.
Must be 10 or 15 yrs since they fledged a Mallard.despite having cracking habitat, fed all year and 50+ resident duck.
Simply refuse to control anything.
Last month the reserve manager will lift 50+ pecked eggs once or twice a week.
Quite literally 2 or 3 pair of corries.
My final year on committee all summer everyone was taking some absolutely cracking photos of stoats.
Then they wonder why no ground nesting birds left.


Just can't tell them owt.

That reserve is a cracking place and the manger does a massive amount with kids, handicapped etc, all voluntary.
It's his pride and joy.
Yet ( and I bet many reserves are the exact same) it actually does more harm for local wildlife than good.
Attracts birds in with feed and habitat that will never breed successfully and likely just feed some predator or other.

A colony of three thousand breeding pairs of Eider duck were taken over by the RSPB on the East coast of Aberdeenshire; they put a fence around it (leaving gates for transiting vermin, etc) and ceased control of corvids.

From that colony of three thousand breeding pairs, their first year ‘in management’ produced a grand total of ONE fledged eider duckling.

Now that’s what I call Genocide….

 

[Heym SR20]

A colony of three thousand breeding pairs of Eider duck were taken over by the RSPB on the East coast of Aberdeenshire; they put a fence around it (leaving gates for transiting vermin, etc) and ceased control of corvids.

From that colony of three thousand breeding pairs, their first year ‘in management’ produced a grand total of ONE fledged eider duckling.

Now that’s what I call Genocide….

It’s why in opening post I did say that if we are going to allow large predators, we absolutely also need to manage them.

Corvids absolutely need management. Counted well over 100 crows on Arthur’s seat the other day all around the swamp area in the middle. Lots of signs about ground nesting birds and avoiding long grassy areas - yet there will be no ground nesting birds thanks to Corvids.

Comment about wolves in Austria - yes they will need to be shot on occasion. In Namibia they run their sheep with Anatatolian shepherd dogs - these are there to keep predators off - both four and two legged types. But if there are problem leopards, cheetahs or lion, when they do shot the odd one, they make a big racket with loud rifles, thunder flashes etc.

And they also produce licences for sport hunting. These are expensive - several tens of thousands of dollars at a time to shoot old animals that are beyond breeding age, or problem animals. This money goes into the local community.

I know a farmer in Argyl. He is now bringing in over £100,000 a year by farming tourists in a gun bus and driving them out into hills to observe sea eagles.

He has also moved his lambing and calving indoors, and has a much higher survival rate, and subsequent yield when he takes to the market than he ever used to when he did everything out doors. He gets more young surviving first few hours, and then they get a good head start before they go out into the fields. If you know anything about livestock rearing, putting on the pounds early on means that they continue to grow well and make good carcasses. Poor weak little youngsters never produce decent animals. His farm is doing well.


As regards RSPB and land management - their record is very poor. Fundamentally RSPB business is all about raising enough funds to fuel their pension pot.

As for fencing - fences make fantastic nets for predators to use - drive the prey to the net and catch it easily. Or the birds are flushed into the fences, where they break their wings etc and die. Not a fan in the slightest.

 

[Camdig]

Seen this today thought might be of interest in this thread.

 

[Smellydog]

FFS

 

[Simon NZ]

Its more of a story about pre human reversion cults , I quote wolves and grizzlies in the US next to the flock of sheep.
Same philosophy and no logic.

 

[crow killer]

Reds are much lighter than greys so get out to end of branches which won’t take a Martins weight. Reds also evolved with Pine Martins so instinctively know how to live alongside them.

Greys are from North America, with no equivalent to the Pine Martin so do not have the natural genetic instinct to avoid them. They are also much heavier than Reds so when they get pushed to far end of branches by a chasing Martin they fall off or get caught.

A red on the other hand will just happily get away.

Yes happily get away ,until the marten comes along to a drey and kills its occupants, either sleeping or young reds in there,

 

[Smellydog]

I think a certain chap here was brought up on Disney and Tales from the Riverbank....