RAF

Nimrod1960

Well-Known Member
Astonished to learn this morning that only 45 uk personnel are passing out at commissioned warrant officer and junior officer course at Cranwell this morning.

I am not ex services but is that not a very small number ? If that reflects the personnel input requirements for the service then do we actually an airforce of any real substance ?

Any ex “knights of the air” on here might put this in context ?
 
Whilst I cannot speak for the RAF, I can put a bit of context in for the Senior Service which is in a somewhat similar situation.

It's worth understanding that whilst it may seem like a bad thing that your 'inflow' numbers appear low, it indicates a wider positive. The subjectively low 'inflow' normally suggests that your 'outflow' is not as large as you would expect. Now I fully understand that this doesnt acount for reorganisation/shrinkage which I concede is happening in equal swathes across all three Services. Acceptance for Commissioned Officers in any of the Services is a heavily competitive environment which therefore means that they can afford to take the best of the bunch. If low numbers have gone through, then that is likely due to the numbers required to maintain the force, vice the numbers that applied.

For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that all three Services are in the midst of a recruitment/retention crisis and have been since Op HERRICK (Afganistan) finished in 2014. My further opinion is that recruitment only solves half of the problem, where I think there is a real issue is how we then serve to retain those people that we have spent a lot of taxpayers money on training them. Much like in some other Sectors (both public and private), I believe that the joys of social media mean that individuals are far more likely to seek employment in areas where extrinsic benefit (money/promotion/way of life etc.) is more prominent.

If you were 18 and were offered the choice between joining the Royal Navy where you would have to live and sleep in a Mess Deck with over 30 people, in bunks 3x high with only a locker the size of your desk for all your personal belongings, or, go into employment, earn more money and be home every night in your double bed. Are we truly shocked at the choices that people make? I tell you what though, I know what choice I would make and it involves me packing a small bag and reinvesting in an even smaller bed sheet.

For those of you with children approaching military service age (i.e. 16+), I would strongly consider broaching the conversation with them about joining the military - it's by far the best (and occasionally the worst) thing you'll ever do.


Hatch
 
Whilst I cannot speak for the RAF, I can put a bit of context in for the Senior Service which is in a somewhat similar situation.

It's worth understanding that whilst it may seem like a bad thing that your 'inflow' numbers appear low, it indicates a wider positive. The subjectively low 'inflow' normally suggests that your 'outflow' is not as large as you would expect. Now I fully understand that this doesnt acount for reorganisation/shrinkage which I concede is happening in equal swathes across all three Services. Acceptance for Commissioned Officers in any of the Services is a heavily competitive environment which therefore means that they can afford to take the best of the bunch. If low numbers have gone through, then that is likely due to the numbers required to maintain the force, vice the numbers that applied.
The problem surely is that the force is far, far too small, in all three services. None of the services could conceivably sustain continuous wartime operations, nor scale up to do so, for any length of time. The Navy cannot defend our maritime interests and trade, let alone do so while suffering losses. The RAF and Army are the same. We cannot sustain any significant losses nor re-arm.
For what it's worth, my personal opinion is that all three Services are in the midst of a recruitment/retention crisis and have been since Op HERRICK (Afganistan) finished in 2014. My further opinion is that recruitment only solves half of the problem, where I think there is a real issue is how we then serve to retain those people that we have spent a lot of taxpayers money on training them. Much like in some other Sectors (both public and private), I believe that the joys of social media mean that individuals are far more likely to seek employment in areas where extrinsic benefit (money/promotion/way of life etc.) is more prominent.

If you were 18 and were offered the choice between joining the Royal Navy where you would have to live and sleep in a Mess Deck with over 30 people, in bunks 3x high with only a locker the size of your desk for all your personal belongings, or, go into employment, earn more money and be home every night in your double bed. Are we truly shocked at the choices that people make? I tell you what though, I know what choice I would make and it involves me packing a small bag and reinvesting in an even smaller bed sheet.

For those of you with children approaching military service age (i.e. 16+), I would strongly consider broaching the conversation with them about joining the military - it's by far the best (and occasionally the worst) thing you'll ever do.


Hatch
For my money, I think the recruitment crisis has less to do with discomfort and lesser pay (which have been eternal factors) than it does with three other factors. One: owing to harmful Home Office policies, at least 35% of our young people are not British. That proportion increases rapidly and continuously. One can't expect them to want to sign up. Two: it simply isn't rational to want to join a token force when we can't sustain it. A military needs sufficient mass and national industrial capacity for its personnel to feel that they have a chance of achieving their objectives or at least surviving a war against a serious state. Three: the legal environment. It is madness to expect people to sign up to serve in combat for a state which values the lives of enemy citizens more than it values yours. We have a system which is still re-investigating deaths in operational zones decades ago, but which isn't seeking the same accountability for the deaths of servicemen.

What's the point in joining the Navy or Air Force when you know that there is no ability to equip you properly in wartime? The cramped bunk is the least of your concerns when you are essentially defenceless after the first phase.
 
The problem surely is that the force is far, far too small, in all three services. None of the services could conceivably sustain continuous wartime operations, nor scale up to do so, for any length of time. The Navy cannot defend our maritime interests and trade, let alone do so while suffering losses. The RAF and Army are the same. We cannot sustain any significant losses nor re-arm.

For my money, I think the recruitment crisis has less to do with discomfort and lesser pay (which have been eternal factors) than it does with three other factors. One: owing to harmful Home Office policies, at least 35% of our young people are not British. That proportion increases rapidly and continuously. One can't expect them to want to sign up. Two: it simply isn't rational to want to join a token force when we can't sustain it. A military needs sufficient mass and national industrial capacity for its personnel to feel that they have a chance of achieving their objectives or at least surviving a war against a serious state. Three: the legal environment. It is madness to expect people to sign up to serve in combat for a state which values the lives of enemy citizens more than it values yours. We have a system which is still re-investigating deaths in operational zones decades ago, but which isn't seeking the same accountability for the deaths of servicemen.

What's the point in joining the Navy or Air Force when you know that there is no ability to equip you properly in wartime? The cramped bunk is the least of your concerns when you are essentially defenceless after the first phase.
I think you have raised some very valid points. One thing I would hasten to point out is that I believe that the United Kingdom would never seek to sustain continuous wartime operations as a single nation. We place such a huge reliance (look at the recent Government recent promise to uphold) on the importance of NATO and the interoperability between those nations as, I think, it is right to assume that we would not be operating in such an environment without the support of those nations. I would challenge anyone who states that any nation can operate as a single entity without relying on significant support from others. Russia v. Ukraine are prime examples of that on both sides.

I will concede that your point regarding the issue of size is a real and valid one. I see it as States can broadly choose to do one of two things; either invest in sheer size of force (think Russia and/or cannon fodder style militia) or invest in technologies which reduce the requirement for size (think the majority of Western Europe). You can choose to do both but that comes at a significant cost and also isn't something that you can just change over night as it likely requires a culture switch - think USA and China. Or do neither and hope for the best - but that tends not to work too well! :lol:

Be under no illusion, there is some seriously impressive kit available to the military that could be deployed in a wartime scenario both in an offensive and defensive environment. Some of this kit far exceeds the capability of some of the things that you have seen in the news surrounding recent conflicts. Clearly, I cannot say whether we would be blown out of the water in the first phase of war because that will all depend on what the threat is and the environment within which you are presented with that threat.

Could we fight a war in the same way that Russia v Ukraine have done? Absolutely not. But that's because the military tactics in which those nations are using is a very peculiar hybrid of WW2/modern fighting methods (think launching ICBM's over the top of your frontline troops that are in a complex network of trenches). We just don't operate in those types of ways and haven't done since WW2.

All food for thought, especially as there is no right or wrong answer!


Hatch
 
I've been on a tri service MOD contract for the last 7 years.I deliver to HMS Raleigh at least every month & the intake is very poor,30 bods a week,sometimes more but it's like the Mary Celeste now.
My man at stores is a ex PO jack dusty at the age of 67 & he's never seen it this bad since the Great Cough of 2020-22.
I speak to a lot of senior rates doing my job & a lot are on extended service so that may explain "dead man's shoes"in the promotion race.
I joined Raleigh in October 1990,30 bods to a class & the base was full of pretend matelots.
 
What needs to happen is anyone who isn't deployable long term they need to get rid of, they need to get rid of people who cant pass a basic fitness test and make incentives of joining the service better. You have fat old crusty WOs, Flights and Chiefs who aren't deployable, make the air force look a disgrace and think a rank slide is a gum shield

Take a leaf out of countries like the US who's military personnel are treated a lot better. It would slowly bring more people into the military and maybe one day make people want to serve.
 
What needs to happen is anyone who isn't deployable long term they need to get rid of, they need to get rid of people who cant pass a basic fitness test and make incentives of joining the service better. You have fat old crusty WOs, Flights and Chiefs who aren't deployable, make the air force look a disgrace and think a rank slide is a gum shield

Take a leaf out of countries like the US who's military personnel are treated a lot better. It would slowly bring more people into the military and maybe one day make people want to serve.
If someone ever had the strength to do this Tri-service they'd all collapse, it's gone on for to long.
 
Just wondering what this figure is based on? I'd have thought either they'd British, or by definition they'd not be 'our' young people.
It is based on 2021 census data. Perhaps I phrased it insufficiently carefully. Around 35% of the young people in the UK. When you adopt a policy of multiculturalism, the consequence is that increasingly small percentages of people are British. They are members of other cultures. That's what multiculturalism means. Despite the nonsense politicians and lefties like to spout, one does not change one's identity merely because they have been in a different place for five years and acquired a small booklet.

By way of example, in my daughter's primary school there are 320-odd children. About 270 aren't British. They are among other things: American, French, Dutch, Russian, Spanish, Chinese, Korean, Polish, Indian, Australian, Kyrghyz, German, Ghanaian, Jamaican, Finnish, Polish, Turkish, etc etc.. This is not a nation any more.
 
I think you have raised some very valid points. One thing I would hasten to point out is that I believe that the United Kingdom would never seek to sustain continuous wartime operations as a single nation.
A couple of points: There's a large element of chicken and egg here. I believe that I would never seek to cross the Channel by swimming, because I know full well that I can't. Secondly, and more importantly, the function of the military is not simply to carry out our government's policy but to defend us against the military policies of others. The UK did not seek to initiate WW2 and most certainly did not ever seek to sustain that as a single nation. However, the fact is that we had to do it. We did not elect to start the Falklands War either.
It is a modern institutional failure to think that war is something we elect to do.
We place such a huge reliance (look at the recent Government recent promise to uphold) on the importance of NATO and the interoperability between those nations as, I think, it is right to assume that we would not be operating in such an environment without the support of those nations.
We do place a huge reliance on NATO, partly because we don't have anything else to rely on. Reliance on NATO is an unwise policy. Firstly, when it comes down to it, it is very questionable what value NATO has. There are two problems: Firstly, excluding the US (which is a realistic possibility these days), no other country has adequate military resources to defend an ally either. It is an alliance which claims strength through mutual inadequacy. It gives a false sense of security while at the same time presenting the excuse for failing to have a sovereign capacity for even elementary self-defence.
I would challenge anyone who states that any nation can operate as a single entity without relying on significant support from others. Russia v. Ukraine are prime examples of that on both sides.
I would challenge anyone who presumes that all adversaries will necessarily be single nations. Ukraine is certainly a prime example, but it was virtually a failed state anyway with very low economic resources. Russia is a less good example - it has sustained for far, far longer than we could a fairly high degree of sustained operations (excluding help) despite endemic corruption and a thoroughly corrupt and badly led military, supplied by a thoroughly corrupt and dysfunctional industrial base, but one that does at least exist.
I will concede that your point regarding the issue of size is a real and valid one. I see it as States can broadly choose to do one of two things; either invest in sheer size of force (think Russia and/or cannon fodder style militia) or invest in technologies which reduce the requirement for size (think the majority of Western Europe).
The problem with the latter approach is that while attractive on paper it is excessively sensitive to losses. Our equipment is undoubtedly more advanced and capable by far, but ultimately it is still vulnerable to loss, becoming unserviceable and lack of supplies.
To take a naval example, our destroyers may well be fantastic and equivalent in firepower on target to a dozen or even 50 old surface ships, right up until the moment one gets sunk or breaks down, or simply happens not to be in the right place. At that point, they are decidedly inferior. We can't operate on the delusion that we will never experience losses.

You can choose to do both but that comes at a significant cost and also isn't something that you can just change over night as it likely requires a culture switch - think USA and China.
We certainly need a culture shift in Whitehall, and apparently in the military.
Or do neither and hope for the best - but that tends not to work too well! :lol:

Be under no illusion, there is some seriously impressive kit available to the military that could be deployed in a wartime scenario both in an offensive and defensive environment. Some of this kit far exceeds the capability of some of the things that you have seen in the news surrounding recent conflicts.
I'm certain that there is. I am also certain that there is not remotely enough quantity of it. I also have the strong suspicion that this is our major weakness, not a strength. We have focussed too much on technologically advanced kit in tiny quantities, and not enough on large quantities of cheaper, less technical lethal power which lasts more than a few days. The allure of "surgical warfare" has blinded our leaders to the real nature of war at scale. We are not allies with several larger nations which are outspending us. Russia has already started a war. China has said it wants to. Iran is constantly at war. India.... we're not sure whether they are friend or foe. We're running a kindergarten foreign policy of pretending everyone in the world is like David Miliband - benign and just interested in getting rich and massive welfarism.
Clearly, I cannot say whether we would be blown out of the water in the first phase of war because that will all depend on what the threat is and the environment within which you are presented with that threat.
The problem seems to me less that we'd get blown out of the water, but that almost any likely initial losses would be too problematic to risk the rest. The depressing fact is that we can't even make ammunition in a wartime environment. I have doubts as to whether the navy and air force could defend our shipping requirements. There is, I believe, only one operational nitric acid factory in the UK. That is the essential precursor to all ammunition and missiles. Lose that and......

We're not going to get a decade's advance warning of war. Even if we did, it is not clear that our political establishment would act on it.
Could we fight a war in the same way that Russia v Ukraine have done? Absolutely not. But that's because the military tactics in which those nations are using is a very peculiar hybrid of WW2/modern fighting methods (think launching ICBM's over the top of your frontline troops that are in a complex network of trenches). We just don't operate in those types of ways and haven't done since WW2.
Which is great so long as we can induce our opponents to fight on our terms, where we want them to, and to give up when we've run out of ammunition. It is probable that if we did have to fight a war with Russia, that we would also be drawn into the same problems as the Ukrainians - an inability to establish air superiority, small numbers of combat aircraft, too little armour, and an inability to manufacture enough ammunition or advanced missiles.

A more pertinent question might be who could we win a war against? What is the actual utility of the military and defence industry we do have? Can it be scaled up in time to defeat a likely adversary?

Why are we 20 years into the era of the UAV and we don't have a very large number of indigenously designed and manufactured combat drones for air, sea and land combat? Even if second-rate.

What do we do to defeat, either by cold war or hot, the axis of China/Russia/Iran and fellow travellers? The current policy of resignation coupled with fantasy is a disgrace.
All food for thought, especially as there is no right or wrong answer!
On the contrary, there are lots and lots of wrong answers. I just pray we don't find out.
 
I was minded to jump in having served 26 years in the RAF and now 23 years in the MOD however, having had a rather bad day on T31 and issues with our latest supposedly un-manned but all too frequently manned mine hunting clearance vessel, I'm going for a beer (theatre actually). My wife resigned from the RAF last August at 62 having worked solidify for 42 years in light blue. We are both therefore well qualified to comment and I see my wife is no longer hesitating from engaging with the Times.

Trust me it's complex: resources (money, people), demand (all 3 Services are at the beck and call of our politicians), quality (equipment, personnel) and frankly societal issues affecting suitability of recruits, expectations, etc. Now, if you'd want to buy me a pint, I'll certainly "swing the lantern" but frankly, many of the SD community could not comprehend how difficult it is to "do" defence in these enlightened times. I have threatened to resign twice this year - I doubt I'm going to make to my 50th years of service.
 
Many very good and valid points made. I also believe that the woeful inefficiency of the privatised (see cash cow for chums) recruitment process is also a factor, how big a one, who knows?
 
Astonished to learn this morning that only 45 uk personnel are passing out at commissioned warrant officer and junior officer course at Cranwell this morning.

I am not ex services but is that not a very small number ? If that reflects the personnel input requirements for the service then do we actually an airforce of any real substance ?

Any ex “knights of the air” on here might put this in context ?
Bear in mind that the MIOT course you refer to is repeated every 6-8 weeks or so. Once a year there is a Royal visit that attracts special attention such as this morning.
 
If you were 18 and were offered the choice between joining the Royal Navy where you would have to live and sleep in a Mess Deck with over 30 people, in bunks 3x high with only a locker the size of your desk for all your personal belongings, or, go into employment, earn more money and be home every night in your double bed.
Ah. But for a friend's son, a St. Vincentian, the proposal offered is serve five years and be allowed to apply for British Citizenship. Plus of course by being at sea there's little to spend your money on and so the savings that you can accumulate are very rewarding. There's no dropping into the pub, nightclub, Pizza Hut on the way home from work and no bicycle nor bus fares needed! He is on HMS Lancaster and his friend who came over with him from St. Vincent is on HMS Prince of Wales.
 
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