raw feed

[T.eddie]

That’s a very interesting article and it does support the theory that dogs have a genetically derived ability to digest starches that their wolf cousins don’t. Thanks for that.

I also found it an interesting read, and surprising that any level of DNA change would be present for a relatively short time. I believe (though may be wrong) that a wolf will eat the partially digested greens out of a kills stomach due to not being as capable to digesting raw ones.

But nothing ive been able to find suggest this change in enzyme production etc has an impact on domestic dogs being able to digest raw food, though well aware some fare better than others, from people ive spoken with that have tried it and then remained on dry/kibble it seems to be they haven't got through the change of food poo's that some with any diet change.

I even saw something before suggesting a vegan diet for dogs was beneficial provided you can supplement the missing vitamins etc (so seems a bit of a waste of time) but with anything these days its hard to find a non-biased fact based bit of information

 

[Millerich]

I also found it an interesting read, and surprising that any level of DNA change would be present for a relatively short time. I believe (though may be wrong) that a wolf will eat the partially digested greens out of a kills stomach due to not being as capable to digesting raw ones.

But nothing ive been able to find suggest this change in enzyme production etc has an impact on domestic dogs being able to digest raw food, though well aware some fare better than others, from people ive spoken with that have tried it and then remained on dry/kibble it seems to be they haven't got through the change of food poo's that some with any diet change.

I even saw something before suggesting a vegan diet for dogs was beneficial provided you can supplement the missing vitamins etc (so seems a bit of a waste of time) but with anything these days its hard to find a non-biased fact based bit of information

Generally speaking, most dogs would find a raw diet highly digestible, which is why some owners of dogs with digestive problems experience an improvement when switching to raw. However, from an evidence based medicine point of view, a highly digestible dry or canned diet would also have the same effect. It’s the digestibility that’s the factor, not the rawness. There’s also the consideration of feeding a dog with a pre-existing gut problem a raw diet with a high probability of Salmonella, E. coli etc.

 

[T.eddie]

Generally speaking, most dogs would find a raw diet highly digestible, which is why some owners of dogs with digestive problems experience an improvement when switching to raw. However, from an evidence based medicine point of view, a highly digestible dry or canned diet would also have the same effect. It’s the digestibility that’s the factor, not the rawness. There’s also the consideration of feeding a dog with a pre-existing gut problem a raw diet with a high probability of Salmonella, E. coli etc.

completely agree, id say more understanding of what's in the food vs what the dog needs/is able to deal with is the best approach and a one fits all of this vs that probably has less to do with it

 

[geoffw]

Raw diets for dogs and cats: a review, with particular reference to microbiological hazards - PMC

There is a recent trend to feed pet dogs and cats in Britain and other developed countries on raw meat and animal by‐products using either commercial preparations or home recipes. This shift from heat‐treated processed food has been driven by ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

A very well written review of a large volume of peer reviewed studies.

Thank you for sharing. Good piece indeed. Starch digestion is referenced in this piece too- "However, the domestic dog is genetically altered from its wild ancestors, with increased starch‐digesting capacity owing to different patterns of gene expression (Freeman et al. 2013)."

What I found illuminating was the level of bacteria in commercial raw foods; makes me think that chunked, well selected/prepared home blends have another (unexpected) advantage, but also a reminder on the need for a full nutritional spectrum.

Also timely to note:
"There is a polarisation in the public debate on the merits of raw feeding, touching as it does on emotionally charged issues such as the care and welfare of pets and a counter‐cultural response to perceived vested interests in the animal feed and other pet care industries. Anecdote, endorsement and firmly expressed opinion have been used on both sides of the debate, and the “campaigning” tone has been aided by large gaps in data."
How true, as with so many areas of public debate, we would benefit from seeking first to understand.

 

[foxhunter]

I fed my terrier for the last 2years on raw venison,rabbit , hare , pheasant etc with raw vegetables and offal until he got seriously I'll with gastro enteritis so I now cook the meat first as dont want to make him ill again. He thrived on raw and loves it but dont want a repeat episode.

 

[foxdropper]

To be honest, I think I’d rather see you return the favour of my couple of links regarding peer reviewed papers on raw feeding with the same for “plenty written to support it”. If advice regarding sound science and informed consent to make your own choices makes me look silly, I’ll take looking silly all day.

In providing such material you’d just debunk it anyway so I’ll not waste my time .Of course it’s your choice but I’d be interested to know what breed of working dog you have and exactly what you expect from them rather than lounging about the house getting fat .There’s a huge difference in owning a working dog and actually working that dog to its full potential so please tell us your experience of this .
I’d also like to know how long you’ve kept dogs and what dietary effects you’ve noticed .
None of this will happen because vets in general are used to walk in fat labs brought in by gullible people who actually listen to the dietary advice given them based on whatever deal they are getting at the moment .
Working dogs brought up on raw from the get go thrive beyond anything fed on kibble based dust .
35 years without a problem speaks volumes whereas everyone I know on commercial food can relate to allergies ,poor coats and premature cancers .
Your trade revolves around animals being ill so why would you put it out there that they will do better on a raw based diet and worked to their potential .
Im afraid my opinion of some vets is very low as you can no doubt ascertain ,being based on pulling heart strings and extracting the last penny from an animals life instead of just saying it as it is .

 

[foxdropper]

I fed my terrier for the last 2years on raw venison,rabbit , hare , pheasant etc with raw vegetables and offal until he got seriously I'll with gastro enteritis so I now cook the meat first as dont want to make him ill again. He thrived on raw and loves it but dont want a repeat episode.

Did you freeze before feeding Mark ?

 

[geoffw]

In providing such material you’d just debunk it anyway so I’ll not waste my time .Of course it’s your choice but I’d be interested to know what breed of working dog you have and exactly what you expect from them rather than lounging about the house getting fat .There’s a huge difference in owning a working dog and actually working that dog to its full potential so please tell us your experience of this .
I’d also like to know how long you’ve kept dogs and what dietary effects you’ve noticed .
None of this will happen because your so used to walk in fat labs brought in by gullible people who actually listen to the dietary advice you give them based on whatever deal your getting at the moment .
Working dogs brought up on raw from the get go thrive beyond anything fed on kibble based dust .
35 years without a problem speaks volumes whereas everyone I know on commercial food can relate to allergies ,poor coats and premature cancers .
Your trade revolves around animals being ill so why would you put it out there that they will do better on a raw based diet and worked to their potential .
Im afraid my opinion of some vets is very low as you can no doubt ascertain ,being based on pulling heart strings and extracting the last penny from an animals life instead of just saying it as it is .

Whoa there- I fear you go too far in personalising your generalisations. Let's keep it civil and debate the facts, not degenerate into ad hominem attacks. Please. Life's too short.

 

[foxdropper]

Thank you for sharing. Good piece indeed. Starch digestion is referenced in this piece too- "However, the domestic dog is genetically altered from its wild ancestors, with increased starch‐digesting capacity owing to different patterns of gene expression (Freeman et al. 2013)."

What I found illuminating was the level of bacteria in commercial raw foods; makes me think that chunked, well selected/prepared home blends have another (unexpected) advantage, but also a reminder on the need for a full nutritional spectrum.

Also timely to note:
"There is a polarisation in the public debate on the merits of raw feeding, touching as it does on emotionally charged issues such as the care and welfare of pets and a counter‐cultural response to perceived vested interests in the animal feed and other pet care industries. Anecdote, endorsement and firmly expressed opinion have been used on both sides of the debate, and the “campaigning” tone has been aided by large gaps in data."
How true, as with so many areas of public debate, we would benefit from seeking first to understand.

Good post .What I think is being lost on some is the ability by others to source raw with most relying on a third party who may or may not treat the meat properly .
Im at a loss how anyone in the shooting game cannot provide enough quality raw for any amount of dogs .The amount being governed by the raw procurement of course .
Fresh meat ,immediately frozen into portions either minced for young dogs or whole for adults that’s been treated as if for human consumption cannot contain the bacterial load spoken of in that article .
Raw food firms arnt very good at sourcing quality products and usually accept the worst of commodities as it’s deemed only fit for dog food .Go down this route and your asking for trouble and maybe where the vets advice stems from .
Source your own ,freeze it and thaw in a fridge not open to elements .

 

[foxdropper]

Whoa there- I fear you go too far in personalising your generalisations. Let's keep it civil and debate the facts, not degenerate into ad hominem attacks. Please. Life's too short.

That is civil sir .It’s about time people realised the background drive to a veterinary practice .
If you’ve anything to the contrary feel free to add .
Its just a debate ,one I’m passionate about .There’s nothing personal about it just generalisation .
Ive edited the original to suit a more general view sir .

 

[Millerich]

Did you freeze before feeding Mark ?

(PDF) Zoonotic bacteria and parasites found in raw meat-based diets for cats and dogs

PDF | Feeding raw meat-based diets (RMBDs) to companion animals has become increasingly popular. Since these diets may be contaminated with bacteria and... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Why freezing is useless, but yes, I know, it’s just a peer reviewed study…

 

[Ratten]

I've got Angus on Bella & Duke as i'm quite lazy, it's easy and he eats it with relish (keenness not Branston). Just fill in dog details and they ship it to you every couple of months. A bit pricey, but arrives frozen in handy tubs that i can just get out of the freezer for 1 - 2 days feeding. And if you're off on the road it keeps fresh for a good period. They have a good mix in each load salmon, white fish, lamb, duck, beef, turkey, chicken. Also it's just up the road from where my mum lives and i'm all for supporting local industry! As someone mentioned DEFRA accreditation is something and they seem to have it.

That and he gets any chicken or other offcuts when i'm preparing. He'd get venison too if i could ever get one of the buggers...

As for parasitic load i can't comment (as that's not my field of expertise), but considering some of the sh*t he eats out of the compost heap, chicken run and other unmentionables i can't see frozen food being the major problem!

One observation is i've never fed him cooked food i.e. from the table as he's always on the raw stuff and he's never begged or looked to steal when i've had my dinner. That could be training over diet, but i'm happy and so is he.

Also, if you get their dried meat treats just note that the goat strips are clearly made from the aged anus of the stinkiest billy goats in the world - utterly foul, but the dog loves it. Other stuff is fine!

 

[foxhunter]

Did you freeze before feeding Mark ?

Mostly all frozen but obviously when butchering a deer I would keep some in the fridge to feed him the next couple of days. He absolutely loves raw, prefers it over anything else but I just dont want the risk of him getting I'll again.

 

[foxdropper]

(PDF) Zoonotic bacteria and parasites found in raw meat-based diets for cats and dogs

PDF | Feeding raw meat-based diets (RMBDs) to companion animals has become increasingly popular. Since these diets may be contaminated with bacteria and... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate

www.researchgate.net

Why freezing is useless, but yes, I know, it’s just a peer reviewed study…

Its a wonder I ever managed to keep anything alive let alone thriving .
Did you manage to read my other posts or have they been brushed in favour of safe conversations .
Been going on by lads who know what they are doing for hundreds of years and I’ll put my house on the fact my dogs are healthier ,work hardier ,look better than anything fed on processed ,concentrate sawdust that passes for complete foods and vets are so quick to make a buck on .
Peer reviewed anything means nothing to a layman sir so please don’t keep banging that one out

 

[foxdropper]

Freeze everything mate and thaw in the fridge over two days .Don’t ask me why just know it works

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Thank you for sharing. Good piece indeed. Starch digestion is referenced in this piece too- "However, the domestic dog is genetically altered from its wild ancestors, with increased starch‐digesting capacity owing to different patterns of gene expression (Freeman et al. 2013)."

What I found illuminating was the level of bacteria in commercial raw foods; makes me think that chunked, well selected/prepared home blends have another (unexpected) advantage, but also a reminder on the need for a full nutritional spectrum.

Also timely to note:
"There is a polarisation in the public debate on the merits of raw feeding, touching as it does on emotionally charged issues such as the care and welfare of pets and a counter‐cultural response to perceived vested interests in the animal feed and other pet care industries. Anecdote, endorsement and firmly expressed opinion have been used on both sides of the debate, and the “campaigning” tone has been aided by large gaps in data."
How true, as with so many areas of public debate, we would benefit from seeking first to understand.

I very much go by 'if I won't eat it I ain't feeding it to my dogs' and that's worked well for years. They're on a raw diet, bloody eat better than me! Our previous vet practice said pedigree was the best food, obviously sponsored by them and the food and bits they had in was all pedigree... Our current vet is a 'private' practice who deals with a lot of working dogs and subsequently the majority feed raw, he's not seen many issues and if there has been, it's usually down to human error.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

Freeze everything mate and thaw in the fridge over two days .Don’t ask me why just know it works

Unless they're stood next to you whilst you trim that haunch for tea fresh off the animal... Then it's fair game

 

[foxdropper]

Strange that mr Buchan hasnt defended his post .Maybe thought better of it

 

[Buchan]

Which food brand sponsors your practice?

Mwaa ha haaa, you fell into my evil trap. I'm a slacker and not in practice any more!

But, I'm quite happy to tell you I made a reasonable return on selling food, mostly Hills, but other brands. And I know plenty of vets who sell raw.

 

[foxdropper]

That’s me blocked then .Oh well ,onward .