Realistic ability of a 30-30?

[AlMai]

Hi all, looking into getting a Winchester 94AE in 30-30 as my first rifle, something to cut my teeth on over a reasonable range. As the 30-30's seem to be the most popular calibre that is (from my googling) suitable for medium sized deer hunting, I'm looking towards getting one. But has anyone had any experience with this calibred rifle? I may be over compensating due to lack of experience and knowledge, but would a 30-30 be enough for a clean and humane kill?

thanks and happy new year!

A

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Hi all, looking into getting a Winchester 94AE in 30-30 as my first rifle, something to cut my teeth on over a reasonable range. As the 30-30's seem to be the most popular calibre that is (from my googling) suitable for medium sized deer hunting, I'm looking towards getting one. But has anyone had any experience with this calibred rifle? I may be over compensating due to lack of experience and knowledge, but would a 30-30 be enough for a clean and humane kill?

thanks and happy new year!

A

A. I suggest you do some training before you invest in a rifle. DSC1 All the best for 2016. JCS

 

[20-250]

Really not the most popular in the UK, for good reason. A bolt actioned rifle will serve you far better as a stalking rifle. JCS gives you good advice above. Get a bit more knowledge before deciding what would best serve your needs.

 

[Heym SR20]

A. I suggest you do some training before you invest in a rifle. DSC1 All the best for 2016. JCS

Plus 1 to this.

I can can understand from googling why you have come to the view that the 30-30 is a good deer calibre. Most results will be from US websites as that is where the vast majority of deer are shot and the vast majority of deer hunters live. Nothing wrong with the 30-30 and a very large number of deer are harvested with it each year.

But it and it's a very big but, in the UK there minimum velocity and muzzle energy requirements and the majority of 30-30 cartridges don't meet these, and thus are technically illegal. For a first rifle I would look for a bolt action in 243, 6.5x55 or 308 with a 6x42 scope.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

30-30 is a moderate energy calibre that fires big bullets at low velocity that just makes the legal energy with Factory some ammo offerings for roe deer or bigger in England and Wales, it is simply not deer legal in Scotland because the bullets are too slow (around 2,200fps) to meet the minimum muzzle velocity in law there (2450fps @ muzzle).

While not wishing to knock the calibre, it is certainly not the choice for beginners and forget a ready supply of factory ammo. Get a .243 like everyone else then get the experience to choose the right calibre for you.

 

[Conure]

Would just like to point out that not all rifles in 30-30 are lever actions. Savage and Winchester both made bolt action rifles in 30-30 although finding one in the UK may be a problem. Remington had their own version of the cartridge that was a rimless one it seems. Bear in mind that many in the UK view the 30-30 as marginal in the accuracy department as well a view that is not held in the US and Australia where lever actions are much more accepted. If your dead set on a lever action of the Winchester 94 or Marlin 1894 type then perhaps the 7-30 Waters is what you should be looking for but of course many a gunshop today may not have ever heard of it. Oddly enough was reading the article on this cartridges development in Ken Waters Pet Loads only the other day having discovered where my horde of old shooting books had been stashed away after the move.

I see the occasional Winchetser 30-30 being shot on the range one of which is the rifle and not the shorter barrel carbine that seems to be more common.

Yes I have been spending time reading American forums.

 

[enfieldspares]

If you are buying stalking where the gamekeeper (more correctly the stalker) sits you in a high seat and says "Shoot that one, Sir" then there is absolutely no need at all for a DSC 1. The ONLY training that will be relevant to you is training to hit a target of about three inches diameter at the distance that the stalker expects you to take the shot.

But is 30-30 ideal? It is adequate, probably at up to about one hundred yards for smaller deer (muntjac, roe, fallow) from a stand (more correctly high seat) of just wandering about through woodland hoping to jump shoot a deer (more correctly woodland stalking).

But not at all the best practice or best choice for on the hill (meaning traditional Highland stalking) as the calibre is marginal IMHO and its flat pointed bullet shape only increases that handicap as ranges increase. Also the Winchester 94 is not an ideal rifle. It is no longer made and therefore spares are virtually unobtainable for the parts that do wear out. So unless you source a rare bolt action 30-30 (as CONURE says they do exist Norman Clarke has or had one for sale) then flat point bullet are the handicap you will have to take on board.

As CONURE says if you are dead set on a lever action there are better choices than a Winchester and better calibres. 7-30 Waters, as he says, and .307 Winchester. But better of all is to look at the Browning BLR or the Savage. But personally a good bolt action in a widely available calibre is a better choice.

 

[Southern]

The .30-30 will be found all over the Internet because about 7,000,000 of them have been sold since 1894, and Winchester and Marlin still make them and sell them steadily today, all over the USA.

As already stated, it fires a 170-gr flat nosed bullet at 2,200 fps or a 150-gr at 2,400 fps. The 20-inch carbines were designed to fit in a saddle scabbard, stage coach or overhead compartment on a steam locomotive, and are handy for hunting in the woods. The trajectory is a bit of an arch, making them best for 100-yard hunting. Inside 100 yards they are very effective on deer, and even boar, bear, elk and moose.

In the hands of a marksman with the right sights on a 24-inch barrel rifle of some accuracy, the .30-30 can easily take a deer cleanly at 200 yards, especially with handloads of 150-gr, 130 or 125-gr spitzer bullets, used as a single shot. But few people do that. I am one of them, using a Marlin half-magazine 24-inch barrel Model 336 Deluxe, and I enjoy it.

The Winchester, having top ejection, is not amenable to a scope, unless you get the more modern 94AE ( Angle Eject ). The .30-30 is too much power for a fox.

So my suggestion is to listen to your fellow UK deer hunters, get a mild-recoil rifle like the .243 which is very common there, very accurate and very versatile for anything from fox to large deer; and there are tons of nice used ones to be bought.

Then, if you still have the itch for a lever action, get one in a handgun caliber, like the .357 Magnum /.38 Special, for lots of cheap and fun shooting. I hope you do, and get the bug later for a .30-30, .444 Marlin, or .45-70, or a Savage 99 or Browning BLR firing a bolt-action cartridge.

 

[Muir]

The problem isn't the cartridge as 130 and 140 grain loads will reach the velocity and energy values necessary. It is the rifle. Even in the US were the lever gun is popular, people tend to go to a bolt gun where shots longer than 100 yards are needed -and especially when precision is needed. I have three 30-30 lever guns and all of them are accurate but I seldom use them. What is of more interest is one of the afore-mentioned bolt actions that have been made in the past. I briefly owned a Model 54 Winchester (model 70 forerunner) in 30-30, I have owned three Remington 788's in 30-30, and I once owned a Swedish Mauser that someone had converted to 30-30. These rifles will shed a whole new light on the 30-30.~Muir

 

[Southern]

A wonderful .30-30 is a rifle in the 1885 falling block single shot action. I especially like the Browning 1885 Traditional Hunter Low Wall with crescent buttplate, open sights, and a tang peep sight. Wish I had one, but I am making do with my Marlin rifle.

Another is a Thompson break action single shot, or the really small EA Brown 97D.

Put a .30-30 with a 125-gr Sierra or Nosler BT handload in one of these and you will be a happy camper.

Can you get a Merkel, Heym or Blaser single shot over there in .30-30?

 

[Greener Jim]

As stated in the other thread, the 308 BLR you were looking at would be a better choice.

The 30-30 would work fine BUT you'd be limiting yourself to what shots you could take. Now if you are willing to do that or you will only hunt in woodland then that's fine, you just have to accept the limitations.
I personally wouldn't say get a .243 as a first rifle, something a little bigger would be preferable so 25-06, 6.5x55, 308, 7mm-08 or similar.
If you are set on a lever action a BLR is a better choice. I prefer the looks and handling of a proper lever gun but realistically the BLR is better simply by virtue of what cartridges it is chambered in.

 

[Muir]

By Ned! I forgot about the T/C and I have one*. That would make a great rifle. I want a 7x30 Waters barrel for my rifle frame.~Muir

(* 30-30 handgun, 5mm Rifle)

 

[enfieldspares]

I'd second GREENER JIM. The .243 has too many problems, IMHO, if you use factory ammunition to make it a good 'all around" deer rifle. That is to say that at short woodland stalking ranges of twenty or thirty yards the "go to" loading of a 100 grain bullet at just under or around 3,000 fps is very destructive.

Far better the unfashionable .308 with, say, a 150 grain or 165 grain bullet that will do the job on any UK quarry species at any range from three yards to three hundred yards without "issues". 7mm-08 isn't bad or, of course, "the Swede" the 6.5x55 but personally the .308 or the 7mm I'd just feel more comfortable with.

If you go for a used Parker Hale on a Mauser action then there is a school of thought that argues that you might as well use that extra length and go .270 Winchester or .30-06.

But personally in the OP's case I would buy stalking and use a series of estate rifles so as to get, as a benefit, the chance in a stalking setting to handle, carry, use a variety of weapons. Long action, medium action, blue steel and wood, stainless and plastic stock. In a variety of calibres. So try different estates and, almost, select them by not only the stalking but by what weapon they have as an estate rifle.

 

[AlMai]

Thanks for the help and advice everyone! Greener Jim, I'm realising (slowly) that the BLR is the right rifle. to be honest, after reading up on the 30-30 and realising what the velocity vs UK legal req was, the only advantage I can see is the cost to buy one (around £300), but, as you said a .308 would give a more broad range.
The comments suggesting the DSC 1, theres one on in my area in late Jan that im booking in the next week or so, just for my own piece of mind if nothing else, as I want to learn to stalk properly.
Thanks again all

A

 

[Greener Jim]

It's a shame you are too far away otherwise I'd invite you on to my (very) modest permission just to talk you through it.

DSC1 is a good course, a guy a know went on it and found it very useful. However it's not vital if you can gain a little experience another way. I never did DSC1 and likely won't. If you can get out with an experienced rabbit shooter you will learn most of the fieldcraft you need to know. Everything else can be learnt on here and from books/manuals.

If you are willing to step away from lever actions there is MUCH more choice and you'll be able to spend the same as what you would spend on the 30-30 but end up with something less likely to disappoint/limit you.

Couple of examples:
Unknown .308 Bolt Action Rifle for sale. Buy for £300.

Midland Gun Company .308 Bolt Action Rifle for sale. Buy for £195.

 

[Conure]

A thought just struck me are you left handed by any chance?

it is one reason that I have noticed that some shooters go for a lever action rifle.

 

[Southern]

I have a Savage 99A saddle carbine in .308 Win, and a BLR Lightweight carbine in 7mm-08, both wonderful woods rifles, and capable of long shots, but the BLR really has the accuracy and about half the felt recoil, flat top receiver for a variety of scopes ( mine is 2-7x35 Burris in Warne QR rings).

And the BLR comes in a takedown, just snaps apart. Extra barrels are only about $225.00 here. You could have one with sights and another threaded for a moderator.

The suggestions for a used 6.5x55 Mauser are good - as common as the .243 over there. And the one by Conure about borrowing estate rifles, to get a feel for a lot of different rifles and cartridges.

 

[AlMai]

A thought just struck me are you left handed by any chance?

it is one reason that I have noticed that some shooters go for a lever action rifle.

Right handed, was looking at lever action, just because of it seems like its stood the 150yr test amongst stalkers (or at least american hunters) so thought it might be a wise place to start.

Greener Jim, id take you up on your offer in a heartbeat if distance were no factor, thank you nonetheless, but luckily there are quite a few rabbit and by default, rabbit hunters (insert Elmer Fudd cartoon here) around Carmarthen way that I know of, inc a couple farms and stable hand friends who I know who may be able to give me some knowledge, or atleast a couple hours of experience.
Ive found a few rifles that im taken by, not breaking the bank, but seeing as Ive got parents on board with the idea of me stalking (seeing as home would be where I would be storing the rifles as student housing tend not to love the idea of a guy with a rifle and a couple hundred rounds of ammunition about) theyve kept nattering on about buying cheap and buying twice, so heres what Ive found:
Ruger MK 77 .308 Rifles | GunStar
Remington .308 700 ADL Bolt Action Rifle for sale. Buy for £395.
Enfield 7.62 L42A1 style Bolt Action Rifle for sale. Buy for £400.
BRNO .308 Rifles | GunStar
Savage Arms .308 Axis 2 Bolt Action Rifle for sale. Buy for £550.

I like the Enfield (probably just because its an Enfield and has the cool factor of being a service rifle at some point) and Ive come to know that Rem 700's are a good rifle, not sure why though, think theyre used in US police forces?

 

[palmer_mike]

I like the look of the brno.....

 

[Greener Jim]

You're more than welcome. Happy days mate. Some field experience, with or without, DSC1 will get you well on the way to were you need to be. Shot placement and backstop knowledge is what you need to take on board and you will no bother.

I agree with the buy right, cry once mentality however you can buy a cheap rifle which will do everything you need so it's all about being wary and switched on when buying secondhand.
In my opinion the Ruger, Remington and Brno are the best options there. Personally I think the Savage Axis is a pretty cheap feeling rifle, they may shoot fine but they are nowhere near the quality of the others mentioned.

The Enfield is nice but it's 7.62x51 not .308 and not all 7.62 rifles are safe to shoot 308 in. I've just bought a 7.62x51 and will be checking it thoroughly before firing 308 in it. It's a project and I'm prepared to rechamber if needs be, I'm guessing you wouldn't be. Plus the Ishapore (Indian 7.62x51 Enfields) rifles can be hit and miss regards quality and, in some cases, safety. However, that one may not be an Ishapore, I simply don't know

The Ruger, Remington and Brno are the best choices. Bear in mind that only the Remington and Savage are moderator ready. As my signature says, feel free to PM me anytime.